Future of US auto industry manufacturing? - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudley624 View Post
    Well, this is an interesting thread...

    May I nudge in with a question? A few posts back, there was a comment about railroads paying tax on the land. I’m not an expert, but I do know that the (idle) railway land in my town is not taxed, because it is legally exempt. It has been my impression that all railroads that exist for commerce, all across the nation, are free from real estate tax. I do not think my state is somehow unique. Can anyone expand on this?

    Also, I mentioned the idle status of the track here in town. No train has rolled on that track since perhaps the 70’s; indeed the track is so poor that it can no longer bear any weight. However, the track is technically still there, and apparently that’s all it needs to do to still be called a railroad for tax-status purposes. I see this as representing a particularly forgiving attitude toward railroad companies as regards land taxation, which adds to my belief that they are exempt.

    Disclaimer: Not taking a stand here, only seeking clarification from those with greater knowledge if available.
    I found that interesting also so I started researching it. What I have initially have found is that the general trend is to not tax it. It is a discussed issue though complicated and so it is sort of long reading. It does tie into subsidtoies and land grants which were given in the interest of the transportation and shipping value to the economy of the railroads.

    It obviously has paid off and so that is good regardless of the details of how it was done. Automobiles are shipped on railroads here still today and of course many different things. When people travel long distances they drive or fly. Family members do use the rail and like it yet it does take some time.

    Surely the goods shipped on trains are taxed someplace at a level even Autos shipped on trains. Overall the gain made the railroad a great investment. (Subsidies and land grants and all)

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    I believe everything is still made in the UK - so it's Indian owned only.
    Like Gordons family Nissan...it's French now (Renault)
    I dont know how you feel about foreign ownership in Blighty- but in the USA, if a foreign company owns a US factory, the resulting, US cars, are still considered "foreign" by a wide swath of americans.

    We have factories in the USA making BMWs, Mercedes, VWs, Hyundiais, Subarus, Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, Fiats, Mazdas, Kias, and Volvos.
    I, personally, think if they are made in the USA, they are "american" cars, but many people do not.

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  4. #123
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    It's so murky, what is foreign or American?

    For example, Bobcat is now owned by the Korean company Doosan. But they are still being made in North Dakota. Does that make them foreign?

    Chyrsler hasn't been majority American owned for over 20 years unless you count Cerberus or the US government who basically just checked its pulse once in a while during the great recession. Does that make them foreign cars? The business cards I have all say "Fiat Chrysler Automotive".

    The industrial park where my shop is located has a John Deere 444 end loader. Except it's actually a Hitachi end loader built entirely in Japan and shipped here. The engine is Deere and made in the US. My brother has a Deere 490B excavator that is also built in Japan by Hitachi but has a US made Deere engine. I doubt most people have any idea those machines are rebadged Japanese iron. And they are both 30+ years old.

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  6. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    I dont know how you feel about foreign ownership in Blighty- but in the USA, if a foreign company owns a US factory, the resulting, US cars, are still considered "foreign" by a wide swath of americans.

    We have factories in the USA making BMWs, Mercedes, VWs, Hyundiais, Subarus, Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, Fiats, Mazdas, Kias, and Volvos.
    I, personally, think if they are made in the USA, they are "american" cars, but many people do not.
    If something was made in my country, even if the company was "foreign owned" I'd regard that jobs going to my own countrymen were more important that ownership.

    Where most of the cars I've had are really made I've no idea (and don't care) but the Ford Mondeo I had a few years ago I know was made in Belgium. When in Texas I rented a Chevrolet Equinox thinking it'd be a good idea to drive around in a US car. Turns out they are made in South Korea.

    Even something like the air filter in your car is probably made in India. Is there any car now that can claim to be 100% "home made"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Leccy is great for town driving, small efficient nip to the shops things, but what if you like to go out up the mountains? You need gas.
    Just saw quite a few going up the Grapevine. They were passing us in our infernal confusion rentamobile like bats outta hell

    btw, I got 46.1 mpg measured outta that p.o.s. But did anyone else notice that the price of gasoline took a $1/gal jump about the first day of sunny weather ? Nice.

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  9. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Just saw quite a few going up the Grapevine. They were passing us in our infernal confusion rentamobile like bats outta hell

    btw, I got 46.1 mpg measured outta that p.o.s. But did anyone else notice that the price of gasoline took a $1/gal jump about the first day of sunny weather ? Nice.
    And which country would you be in when all that took place? USA, UK or China?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    And which country would you be in when all that took place? USA, UK or China?
    Gordon, You are being obsessive there is nothing wrong with his post and you can not confirm anything abut your bitterness. It is petty distraction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Gordon, You are being obsessive there is nothing wrong with his post and you can not confirm anything abut your bitterness. It is petty distraction.
    Petty? Bitter? Neither. I asked "him" a question and I don't know why you feel you need to defend EG. I've never regarded "him" as silent or stupid.

    As far as "distractions" go then your forum seems to thrive on them.

    How many of the "Brexit" posts in that thread are relevant to Brexit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    As far as "distractions" go then your forum seems to thrive on them.

    How many of the "Brexit" posts in that thread are relevant to Brexit?
    About half if you'd STFU
    After all these years, are we not going to be allowed to drift off topic into other interesting areas now?

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    Gordon you complain whatever way the thread goes and that is a fact. That is your way and it is just obsessively against everything type disposition. Brexit discussions by you are just a example. People have by far and large attempted a reasonable and polite discussion with you until you just turn nasty for no good reason. I have watched you harangue drifting off the topic of the last few posts before and the whole thread. You argue whichever the wind blows.

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  17. #131
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    I thought this was a pretty interesting list-
    Here were the top 20 most exported models from U.S. plants to China in 2017:

    1. BMW X5: 52,407
    2. Mercedes-Benz GLE: 40,304
    3. BMW X3: 34,609
    4. Lincoln MKC: 17,753
    5. Mercedes-Benz GLS: 17,420
    6. Mercedes-Benz R-Class: 13,402
    7. Ford Explorer: 12,906
    8. BMW X4: 10,928
    9. BMW X6: 9,027
    10. Tesla Model X: 8,848
    11. Jeep Grand Cherokee: 8,832
    12. Toyota Sienna: 7,460
    13. Ford Mustang: 7,137
    14. Tesla Model S: 5,931
    15. Jeep Wrangler: 5,302
    16. Lincoln Continental: 4,927
    17. Lincoln Navigator: 1,764
    18. Jeep Cherokee: 1,697
    19. Mercedes-Benz GL-Class: 1,061
    20. Chevrolet Camaro: 977

  18. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Gordon you complain whatever way the thread goes and that is a fact. That is your way and it is just obsessively against everything type disposition. Brexit discussions by you are just a example. People have by far and large attempted a reasonable and polite discussion with you until you just turn nasty for no good reason. I have watched you harangue drifting off the topic of the last few posts before and the whole thread. You argue whichever the wind blows.
    You have warned him in the past...to no avail.

    Another banning (say 3 months) should prove fruitfull.

    What say members ?
    Last edited by digger doug; 04-29-2019 at 02:23 PM.

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  20. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post

    What way members ?
    Count me out of any voting - The Brexit democracy leaves a very bad taste in my mouth...

  21. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Count me out of any voting - The Brexit democracy leaves a very bad taste in my mouth...
    Alrighty then....but sit on your hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Be curious to know more about the state of Chinese company body manufacturing.

    I'd suspect the body and stamping die prints for VW's are the same regardless of where the stamping presses are located. Any thoughts on how the fits, gaps, corrosion protection etc. are on Chinese-designed vehicles?
    Just from visual observation on the streets, they seem to be fine. Not noticeably different from anyone else.

    We had a customer buy two million dollars of grinders to finish the gears for large presses - which they sell to GM and Mercedes that I know of. So I guess the "technology" transfer is well on its way ...

    Once upon a time I'd have thought this would never happen, but it did. They do not behave like the US about stuff, and they have not "become Westernized" but the quality of the goodies is acceptable.

    Maybe my mistake was in thinking there is only one way to skin a cat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Since both the Japanese and the Germans have had auto factories in China for some time now, my guess would be they made clear what their requirements were, and found chinese subcontractors who could do it.
    The germans have had plants there since the 80s, and these days, VW/Audi, BMW, and Mercedes each make over a half million cars a year there.
    The Japanese have had plants there almost that long as well, particularly Honda and Nissan.
    I think this is not correct. No big deal but as far as I know the first foreign company to try auto manufaturing in China was Chrysler with the shen wa ji - Beijing Jeep. That did not end up well. That was in the early nineties, maybe ? Then Peugeot tried, then Shanghai told VW if they built a plant in Jiading the city would buy a guaranteed output of Santanas for taxis. I think that was the tipping point. That would have been in the mid nineties ? There was a big quality difference between those early Santanas and the Santana 2000. Now they are pretty much up to jap quality, appearance-wise anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    And the vast majority of interstate trucking takes place on interstates, where 40' trailers are driven from freight dock to freight dock. So if Semi tractors could get 300 to 500 miles on a charge, that would probably mean electric trucks could handle 50% of america's long haul needs.
    An acquaintance of mine converts mid-size delivery trucks to electric, they are busier than a dog with ... well, you know. But I think if the railroads got their shit together, they could take back a big chunk of transcontinental shipping. They are just too fat and happy as-is.

    I'd love to pack a machine, take it to a local yard and have it go straight across the country and onto a ship. Trucking in the US has become a nightmare.

    So- who would buy a Ford sedan, besides a rental car company?

    I have driven my share of em as rentals, and not a one of em had any soul, personality, or was different from a fridge from home depot.
    I think you just described most modern cars. With very few exceptions, they are all boring as hell. And if you do get in an exciting one, you're gonna get a $500 ticket pretty quick

    [*]Ford Mustang: 7,137
    [*]Chevrolet Camaro: 977
    Iacocca wins again ! Pony cars forever !

    btw, speaking of auto mfg, just re-read the Iacocca ghost-written autobography. Damn. We could use a lot more Iacoccas in this world If you get a chance, pick it up.

    The Chrysler story is almost a paradigm for the US - one bunch of people sweat and slave their hearts out to save something of value, then five creepy bankster-type losers come along and sell it all down the river. Bob Eaton, Bob Lutz -- ROT IN HELL, ASSHOLES !

  24. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    ....
    The Chrysler story is almost a paradigm for the US - one bunch of people sweat and slave their hearts out to save something of value, then five creepy bankster-type losers come along and sell it all down the river. Bob Eaton, Bob Lutz -- ROT IN HELL, ASSHOLES !
    Perhaps you should read more books or be on first name basis with those involved.
    It is not and was not that simple.
    Lee was far from a saint. His PR side was exceptional. Second in the auto world to only Henry Ford.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Lee was far from a saint.
    That goes without saying, he's salesman !

    But ... a few facts :

    He did save Chrysler as a company. At the time he left they had the best engineering in the business and the most exciting new cars and were doing pretty well. They were not as big as Ford or GM but considering the wreck they were when he came on, he did an unbelievable job. Also, he never claimed to do it all by himself, he was always generous about sharing the credit - not only with the other management saviors but with the workers as well. You're right, he's human, not divine, but as a CEO he was way better than 98% of what we have leading our companies.

    Then the five new pricks with Bob Eaton on point entered a "merger of equals" with Daimler. Eaton, Lutz and three others walked off with literally millions. Chrysler was bigger than Mercedes at the time and financially stronger.

    The five newly-wealthy guys from Chrysler walked away, Mercedes stomped on the company like a cheap floormat, used it up and spit it out, and Chrysler today ain't shit.

    They coulda been somebody. They were a contendah. Eaton and Lutz in particular are assholes, traitors to manufacturing and the US. If you know them personally, please tell them I spit on their graves. They go into the same box of creeps as Bill Agee, Carl Icahn and all the rest of the finance pricks who have sold us down the river.

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  27. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post





    I think this is not correct. No big deal but as far as I know the first foreign company to try auto manufaturing in China was Chrysler with the shen wa ji - Beijing Jeep. That did not end up well. That was in the early nineties, maybe ? Then Peugeot tried, then Shanghai told VW if they built a plant in Jiading the city would buy a guaranteed output of Santanas for taxis. I think that was the tipping point. That would have been in the mid nineties ? There was a big quality difference between those early Santanas and the Santana 2000. Now they are pretty much up to jap quality, appearance-wise anyhow.
    AMC, not Chrysler, opened a plant in China to make Jeeps in 1983.
    VW opened their first joint venture plant in Shanghai in 84, by 1996 they were making 300,000 a year.
    So it was a bit earlier than you think.
    Mercedes did a few chinese assembled cars in 88, but didnt start real production until 2005. In the same plant, much upgraded, that those Jeeps were made in back in the 80s.
    The Chinese made Beemers date to 2003.
    Audi, VW's second big factory, dates to 1991 in Changchun.

    Intitially, of course, the production numbers for all of these were small, and it is only in the last 15 years or so that they have started to be a real market presence, but is true that by the early 90s, the Germans had actual factories making cars in reasonable amounts in China.
    The Japanese didnt really start in earnest until 2003 or so.

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