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GM to layoff 15k workers...close plants.

Very sad to hear this. The low unemployment rate is historically low. With demographics many older workers will reach retirement age. These workers participating in the workforce will be good for participation.
 
Why would anybody want cars? Larger vehicles are much better suited to dealing with the results of climate change.

(Pssst, hey, ya see what I did there?)
 
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Let's look at who gave GM my taxpayers money....and then to show
their appreciation, shuttered 8 plants and move the work overseas.

So now, it appears their mad at the current administration's
NAFTA re-jiggering.

Although they didn't say anything to that end eh ?

Closing plants that don't make the new "Electric & self drivers",
When none are even being tested as of yet ? Nor unveiled ?

I smell a rat.....

Should have never bailed (helped) them out, it just empowered them to new
heights of disgusting behavior.
 
Actually, if you look at which plants are being closed, they are doing exactly the same thing Ford is- shutting down the production of sedans in North America. Because nobody buys em.
They are keeping open the plants that make SUVs and Pickups. Both Ford and GM. Because thats what makes a profit in the USA.

As long as the economy is going well, thats true.
But in 2009, when the recession hit, SUV and Pickup sales cratered.

Assuming there will never be another recession in the USA seems a bit shortsighted to me- although, both Ford and GM have ample production capacity abroad, in Mexico, Asia, South America, and Europe, to make small cars, if and when americans ever want to buy them again.

I dont see this as having anything to do with bailouts- after all, Ford didnt receive anywhere near the bailouts of GM or Chrysler, but their beancounters came up with the same conclusion- the US is a crummy place to make small, inexpensive cars, while asia and other third world countries are much more profitable places to make, and sell, such cars.

Also, I think this is yet another step towards GM being a Chinese company, in the sense that they already sell more cars there, and see growth there increasing yearly, while US growth is very small, and unlikely to get bigger. Ever.

Just like Trump doesnt believe in climate change, he doesnt believe in the fading of the USA as an economic power, and a big consumer powerhouse- but the signs are continuing to increase for both things.

If only our population, and our economy, could increase- like, say, the way we have always done it for the last 200 plus years, with immigration...
 
Because the average US consumer wants a 3 ton truck to take the kids to kindergarten instead of a sensibly sized car. So the plants making sensibly sized cars get shut.

Nope, not necessarily a 3 ton ( or 1/2 ton even ) truck, rather them ghetto offroad... err. SUV-s.

Can't necessarily blame the automakers for shutting down unproductive lines per-se, but for the life of me can't figure out the reason behind the SUV love of the great unwashed.
Small family = sedan
medium family = station wagon
Large family = minivan

Period, The end.

I don't care how fancy on the outside an SUV is, it's still a useless piece of shit when compared to either a sedan, wagon or minivan.
 
Give me a station wagon that sits like an old Ford Model A and I might buy it. The cars these days sit your butt just above the floor pan, with your legs straight out in front of you. That is uncomfortable for me for short trips, and painful for long trips. I'll buy the extra gas for a chance of having my feet closer to under my knees.
 
Really? When plenty of "SUVs" get 30+ mpg? All "SUV" means these days is "car with decent headroom."

Or, for example, take the weirdo-mobile that I drive, which is a Honda Ridgeline. (which is, incedentally, perfect.)

You can get the thing in four flavours:
Honda Pilot: standard 7-seat SUV
Acura MDX: Slightly fancier 7-seat SUV
Honda Ridgeline: Surprisingly capable 5-seat pickup
Honda Odyssey: Probably the best minivan on the planet.

The major differences? Well, you can't get the Odyssey in AWD. That's about it. But what makes the minivan version virtuous and the SUV version villainous? The pickup version silly? They're the same vehicle.

People stopped buying cars because these days you can get other planforms with literally no downside. When I can get acceptable mileage and car-like handling and acceleration and ride and quiet out of a pickup or SUV, why drive a car?

It's like why would anyone have a landline in a world with pervasive cell phones? Technology and consumer tastes moved on.
 
Nope, not necessarily a 3 ton ( or 1/2 ton even ) truck, rather them ghetto offroad... err. SUV-s.

Can't necessarily blame the automakers for shutting down unproductive lines per-se, but for the life of me can't figure out the reason behind the SUV love of the great unwashed.
Small family = sedan
medium family = station wagon
Large family = minivan

Period, The end.

I don't care how fancy on the outside an SUV is, it's still a useless piece of shit when compared to either a sedan, wagon or minivan.

It IS ironic, station wagons have lost favor in the US, the whole SUV thing is just big station wagons. The craze for pick ups always amazed me, most are never used as trucks. The secret is or at least was in the CAFE exemptions for trucks and SUV's.

I have owned two pick up trucks in my life 45+ years of driving. Total time of ownership less than 5 years and half of that time they were just used as cars. I have never had an SUV and the lord willing I never will. My lil wagon is just fine for 90% my Peterbilt handles the other 10% The small "crossover" SUV's are just station wagons with taller body work. The old Suburbans and Travelalls are a far cry from the duded up mall crawlers of today.

I do see the thought of GM going to electric, in the next 20-30 years internal combustion vehicles will be few and far between. Right now GM has the best battery chemistry and temp regulation in the industry, watt density is getting better and range is improving. For a very large segment of the car market, the electric vehicle makes a perfect choice. Scale of production and customer acceptance is the big challenge in the US. The forward look GM is taking makes its long term viability greater, Trucks and SUV's are the capital source to fund the electric transition.

Steve
 
Because the average US consumer wants a 3 ton truck to take the kids to kindergarten instead of a sensibly sized car. So the plants making sensibly sized cars get shut.

Your Absolutely right Mark,
Let someone else make little cars at $20 grand a pop,
GM and Ford are finally thinking correctly.
 
Nope, not necessarily a 3 ton ( or 1/2 ton even ) truck, rather them ghetto offroad... err. SUV-s.

Can't necessarily blame the automakers for shutting down unproductive lines per-se, but for the life of me can't figure out the reason behind the SUV love of the great unwashed.
Small family = sedan
medium family = station wagon
Large family = minivan

Period, The end.

I don't care how fancy on the outside an SUV is, it's still a useless piece of shit when compared to either a sedan, wagon or minivan.

I have owned close to 50 cars in my life, and, of course, have broken all your rules. I have owned huge vehicles, and tiny ones. Once, a 360CC mitsubishi van, and 2 Cushman 3 wheelers.

Anyway- virtually nobody makes a station wagon anymore, nor have they for decades.
Aside from VW, the only station wagons available, that are NOT SUV's, are from BMW, Volvo, and Mercedes, and they cost between $60k and $150k. Not exactly in the price range of small families.

I guess my Honda Fit is sorta a station wagon, although, really, its a hatchback.

And sedans have been a dying breed for quite a while- the koreans and japanese still make them, and have pretty much cornered the market. Where I live, you do see occasional octegenarian farm wives driving buick sedans, because that was class in the 1950s. But in reality, nobody buys a sedan who can afford something better. Except if its an M series Beemer, maybe.
 

There is a lot going on in this announcement that is not being talked about. These plans have been rumored since last spring. This really is not a surprise.

1st, the majority of the lay offs are targeted at a significant number of middle managers that are very highly paid. I think the target number was around 15,000 late last summer. These guys are retirement age or close and are in the $175K-300K wage brackets.

2nd thing is that some of these plants on the closure list have a reputation for having a difficult labor force. Not saying that this reputation is accurate but it is a method of tough negotiating by GM. The Oshawa plant has lost car lines before, like the Camaro. Pull the car, idle the plant, then get labor and tax concessions.

3rd issue is that the announced plants are producing car platforms that are not selling. By announcing the intended closings GM is getting publicity that gets the public excited and concerned. This is a great way to get the local municipalities to start kicking in money and giving tax breaks.

4th thing is that this is a union-management dance. GM has made the announcement of plant closures. The UAW leadership has come out making their strong statement of fighting for labor. GM will get what they really want, which are some labor concessions, UAW leadership will get to come off as they have really fought for the membership and everyone will be happy.

This is all part of the auto manufacturing game. I suspect that few real jobs will be lost except for management positions which typically are often redundant and most of the announced plants will get a new line.

The sky is not falling and GM's moves reflect market realities. Part of the drive for manufacturing the unpopular models was to meet the fuel mileage fleet standards set by the EPA. The problem is that most people find the larger vehicles more comfortable and desirable. Time for the next new thing, rinse and repeat.
 
Really? When plenty of "SUVs" get 30+ mpg? All "SUV" means these days is "car with decent headroom."

Or, for example, take the weirdo-mobile that I drive, which is a Honda Ridgeline. (which is, incedentally, perfect.)

You can get the thing in four flavours:
Honda Pilot: standard 7-seat SUV
Acura MDX: Slightly fancier 7-seat SUV
Honda Ridgeline: Surprisingly capable 5-seat pickup
Honda Odyssey: Probably the best minivan on the planet.

The major differences? Well, you can't get the Odyssey in AWD. That's about it. But what makes the minivan version virtuous and the SUV version villainous? The pickup version silly? They're the same vehicle.

People stopped buying cars because these days you can get other planforms with literally no downside. When I can get acceptable mileage and car-like handling and acceleration and ride and quiet out of a pickup or SUV, why drive a car?

It's like why would anyone have a landline in a world with pervasive cell phones? Technology and consumer tastes moved on.

None of those vehicles have car like handling.
 
Have you driven any of them?

I mean, it's very likely that I'm wrong and you're right.

It's just the significant plurality of American consumers, and Ford, and now GM agree with me.

But, again, it's very likely that I'm wrong.
 
Have you driven any of them?

I mean, it's very likely that I'm wrong and you're right.

It's just the significant plurality of American consumers, and Ford, and now GM agree with me.

But, again, it's very likely that I'm wrong.
The numbers are not even close to a car.
It’s just that people are willing to accept lousy handling.
Excess power makes it feel better, but when it comes to a panic slalom or mountain road they just aren’t up to it.
 
Have you driven any of them?

I mean, it's very likely that I'm wrong and you're right.

It's just the significant plurality of American consumers, and Ford, and now GM agree with me.

But, again, it's very likely that I'm wrong.


Actually, a significant plurality of Americans agree with you, while Ford and GM simply obeys the trend.

And while I have not driven anything from Honda Motors recently, I have driven Mitsubishi, Toyota, Ford and GM SUV-s, and no, they do not compare to a sedan as far as I'm concerned.
In fact they are much more unstable than a Grand Caravan or a Sienna, both of which I either own or have owned.

Ries

I'm not necessarily saying that my rules should ... rule, but I still don't see how an SUV is any better than a minivan.
Yes, too bad about the station wagons being limited to the foreign makers, and it is the result of the US demand. Heck even Audi stopped importing the Avants to the US market.

My typical daily driver is a Grand caravan or the F250. The caravan is if I don't want shit to get wet, while the 250 hauls about 10-15K load each and every week.
Wife is in an A4 sedan, one kid loves her A6-Avant, while the other is torturing her RAV-4 that simply won't die despite the 260K+ miles on it.
Oddly enough, the RAV-4 is the most useless out of all of them, including snow day driving. But, it, still, just, won't die!
 








 
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