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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    With a grid down for an extended period, what are you using to get fuel out of the storage tanks? Suppose if you're a Nigerian fuel thief and accomplished at sucking the proverbial tennis ball through a garden hose, you might have some luck siphoning fuel from depth.
    Quietly removing fuel from underground tanks is very easy and does not require the use of electricity.

    To add to this thread, General Motors can close and take Boeing with it. They both suck.

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    A huge part of our business has historically been tied up in automated fixturing and welding of light and heavy-duty vehicle exhaust for the biggest Tier One folk.

    I keep hearing that we're quoting battery tray weldments and more structural stuff lately. Thank god. I'm definitely one of those who never want to be tied up in one particular niche, no matter how good you are at it. Diversification is safety, as I was taught. It's tough to balance that with good customers who want to send more and more work, though.

    Still, I don't know that any jobs will be so apocalyptically affected. People will take their same skills and shift them to a different part. I don't expect anyone loading parts into a weldment fixture cares what those parts are, converter housings, tailpipes, seat bases, or frame rails.

    And for now, it's just GM. It's not like John Deere and Ford and all the other combustion fleets out there are going all-electric. I don't think there's anything worth chicken-littling about. I think GM is trying to find a place where they can be good. Aside from the debate of diesels and whether Duramax is an overall better value... GM has not really been truly GREAT at much. Corvette for sure eats everyone's lunch in the price bracket, and a lot above its price bracket, but that's a unicorn exception and can't sustain GM. I say this as someone who exclusively owned GM all his life, except for the one Subaru.

    I imagine this is them looking ahead and making a power play to be great at something that their main competition isn't doing (yet). Tough market.

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  5. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    .....
    And for now, it's just GM. It's not like John Deere and Ford and all the other combustion fleets out there are going all-electric.
    Ford committed to all electric sedans and SUVs long before this GM announcement. VW and Toyota on the same path.
    Trucks are another story and in some parts of the world EVs are just not yet a practical option.
    Practical EVs now like nice paved roads where the power output requirement is low, a electric system well entrenched and shorter distance used.
    A grocery getter or short commute is different than a salesperson putting 400 miles a day on a auto.
    We are in a transition. Tesla may have lit the fuse but the bigger players are waiting for market forces.
    Bob

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  7. #164
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    I'm sure Texans are signing up for EV's en mass right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    With a grid down for an extended period, what are you using to get fuel out of the storage tanks? Suppose if you're a Nigerian fuel thief and accomplished at sucking the proverbial tennis ball through a garden hose, you might have some luck siphoning fuel from depth.
    Gas pumps don't require a lot of amperage and can be run by a small portable generator. The terminals where tank trucks fill up usually also have backup generators and the trucks run on diesel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Ford committed to all electric sedans and SUVs long before this GM announcement. VW and Toyota on the same path.
    Trucks are another story and in some parts of the world EVs are just not yet a practical option.
    Practical EVs now like nice paved roads where the power output requirement is low, a electric system well entrenched and shorter distance used.
    A grocery getter or short commute is different than a salesperson putting 400 miles a day on a auto.
    We are in a transition. Tesla may have lit the fuse but the bigger players are waiting for market forces.
    Bob
    Exactly why I've said that hybrids are today's technology, with plug-in hybrids getting a toe wet in the EV world. And contrary to what has been said here, hybrids do not decouple the engine from the wheels but rather power share with the electric motor through a transfer case type transmission. The electric is most efficient at starting from a dead stop and low speed driving while the IC engine is the more efficient motivator at highway speeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Practical EVs now like nice paved roads where the power output requirement is low, a electric system well entrenched and shorter distance used.
    A grocery getter or short commute is different than a salesperson putting 400 miles a day on a auto.Bob

    This is an interesting concept- the salesman who does 400 miles a day. I admit, back in the day, I had a few of those who would drop by every month or two. The welding supply, my main stainless and non-ferrous supplier, a big abrasives company, even a sheet metal tool dealer- all had outside salesmen who would drive around all day, most days, cold calling and giving away scratch pads.

    But where I live, anyway, pretty much all those guys are working from home. My old Stainless salesman is now working from Colorado, a thousand miles away, its all phone and internet.

    Outside sales, in most industries I know, is gone.
    I have a buddy who used to do that with beer and fine wines, and my guess, is, IF restaurants were open (the few that are open around here are doing 25% of the business amount, and selling almost no liquor). then food salesmen would be on the road.
    But hardware, or steel, or tools? The companies I deal with all dropped outside sales guys as long ago as 20 years. And pretty much everybody got laid off or reassigned last march.

    I do have some regular deliveries that arent just UPS- but those are usually 40 foot semis, that leave every morning at 4 from the industrial suburbs 2 hours away. And they go home every night- so electric would work for them, as long as it was 300 mile or so range.

    Certainly long haul semis will be the ones who keep a decent percentage of fossil fuel rigs- but even there, a fair amount could be electric.
    On I5 for example, all 1300 miles of it is full of Amazon and Walmart and Target trucks that are driving 300 or 400 miles from terminal to terminal, and could easily be electric. I drove basically from Canada to Mexico and back in December, and Amazon is about 10% of ALL the trucks on the road these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Gas pumps don't require a lot of amperage and can be run by a small portable generator. The terminals where tank trucks fill up usually also have backup generators and the trucks run on diesel.
    Probably should have included the obligatory smilie! Point of sale access is probably a far greater consideration here than the actual pumping of low margin petrol.

    Seemed like the bigger problem to indulging your motoring pleasure in Tx, was no snow clearing with all those pile-ups the other week. I'm sure the electric car owner, if keen enough, could purchase the same generator to keep the driving experience happening too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    Probably should have included the obligatory smilie! Point of sale access is probably a far greater consideration here than the actual pumping of low margin petrol.

    Seemed like the bigger problem to indulging your motoring pleasure in Tx, was no snow clearing with all those pile-ups the other week. I'm sure the electric car owner, if keen enough, could purchase the same generator to keep the driving experience happening too.
    Remember the good times It remains to be seen just what can be done with EV’s. That is the pick up truck. So far it looks like it is out of a new sequel to Back to the Future.

    The good times in Texas - the horse occasionally gets to ride. 58827e00-c3c8-4407-a226-043d92137ea7.jpg

    At least if the grid is shot then they can always be strapped up to pull those EV’s.

    Anyway laughs aside.

    Elon still has a lot of things to do. He has a good track record and yet the electric car business like the car business in general is tough. He has Tom really shine and I hope he knows that. If he hits a home run with the pickup truck then it should help a lot.

    I wonder if anyone else thinks that if this trend actually turns in favor of EV’s whether or not Tesla will be hit with hard competition? There are others who are working on these diligently.

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    A lot of E trucks in the 16ton gvw class will be on the Euro market this year.New starts and old names like Volvo and Benz.......Most have a claimed 200-300km between charges....Unlike cars,there is plenty of scope for battery swapover ,at say the four hour mark ,so theoretically an E delivery truck can be on the road 24/7.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    A lot of E trucks in the 16ton gvw class will be on the Euro market this year.New starts and old names like Volvo and Benz.......Most have a claimed 200-300km between charges....Unlike cars,there is plenty of scope for battery swapover ,at say the four hour mark ,so theoretically an E delivery truck can be on the road 24/7.
    I still wonder if fuel cells will assert themselves into this sector.
    PLUG has been really buying up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Exactly why I've said that hybrids are today's technology, with plug-in hybrids getting a toe wet in the EV world. And contrary to what has been said here, hybrids do not decouple the engine from the wheels but rather power share with the electric motor through a transfer case type transmission. The electric is most efficient at starting from a dead stop and low speed driving while the IC engine is the more efficient motivator at highway speeds.
    THere is no reason a hybrid has to use the IC engine to drive the wheels, although current designs do, and IC engines are not more efficient on the highway. Yes they are todays technology, one could say yesterdays technology, seeing as the Prius is nearing a quarter century old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    Remember the good times It remains to be seen just what can be done with EV’s. That is the pick up truck. So far it looks like it is out of a new sequel to Back to the Future.

    The good times in Texas - the horse occasionally gets to ride. 58827e00-c3c8-4407-a226-043d92137ea7.jpg

    At least if the grid is shot then they can always be strapped up to pull those EV’s.

    Anyway laughs aside.

    Elon still has a lot of things to do. He has a good track record and yet the electric car business like the car business in general is tough. He has Tom really shine and I hope he knows that. If he hits a home run with the pickup truck then it should help a lot.

    I wonder if anyone else thinks that if this trend actually turns in favor of EV’s whether or not Tesla will be hit with hard competition? There are others who are working on these diligently.
    WoW, that is a crazy horse photo. My granddaughter's new horse was trailer shy and reared up, over backward and died at loading.

    The Green Idea likely includes halting natural gas-fired electricity generating so another element to higher energy prices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar36 View Post
    Not at all, its true on the $45k Tesla Model 3 (Note that the average new car in the US now sells for is $40,573). Tesla's supercharger network is quite extensive and covers everywhere in the US now, and it shows on the nav screen exactly where they are and will route you through them if needed. I've done thousand mile roadtrips and its just never an issue. I always need to stop before the car does.

    Tesla originally designed the car for a swapable battery pack that only took a minute or two. They built a battery swap station that was fully automatic... and nobody used it. Owners realized that sueprcharging was more than sufficient and battery swapping was unnecessary.

    I just drove up to MN in 9 hours. In a pickup, because we were hauling stuff both ways. I did the driving, about 600 miles one way. With an EV, assuming zero wait time for a charging station, that would be a minimum of 11 hours, using your numbers of around an hour for the quick charge. I am of course counting the charge time that is either before starting, or after arriving.

    1) There WILL be waits for the chargers. It is useless and crazy to say "I don't ever have a wait"..... because there are hardly any EVs on the road.... most are short range in-the-city cars. When most are EVs, get used to it.

    2) Tesla says "we tried that and it didn't work"...... Bullshit. ........ Of course not, people were not using the cars in a way that the swappable pack made any difference to them. So who but an idiot would assume they would prefer that?

    3) I expect that the swappable pack would more likely be recharged for local driving. But anyone who drives a longer distance will want the feature. Otherwise, traveling cross country in any vehicle other than paid air/train transport will be damn near impossible.

    4) to be of any use, the swappable pack needs to be standard for all brands

    5) of course, right now, EV's "run on coal"...... they simply transfer the usage of fossil fuel to the power plant, unseen by the super-greenies, and so non-existent.

    6) EVs are not as efficient as people like to claim. Assume 45% for the power plant.... Now, you lose 10% in distribution, if not more..... (40% net). The charging process is not lossless, you lose 12% in that (34% net) between the charger and the battery, if not more. The inverter to change the battery voltage to AC is perhaps 96% efficient (33% net). The electric motor is as high as 90% efficient (29% net), and the efficiency of getting that energy to propel the car is maybe 95% efficient.
    The net out of all that is around 28% efficient, and very possibly lower than that much of the time. Not much if any different from a good modern IC car.

    Using the super-fast charge is less efficient than the above


    BOTH the IC and the EV run on fossil fuel. At similar overall efficiencies.

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    Good to know upfront how cold weather will affect an EV.
    Electric vehicle batteries perform worse in cold weather, AAA study finds

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    BOTH the IC and the EV run on fossil fuel. At similar overall efficiencies.
    Or... you can just put solar panels on your house, have a battery to store it during the day and then charge your EV off that. Or use grid level nuclear, or solar or wind, or hydro. EVs may use fossil fuels today, but they make the transition to energy sources that don't have their prices controlled by OPEC very easy.

    You're making all sort of negative assumptions, from the efficiency numbers you quoted to the difficulty of charging to disparage EVs that just aren't true or are exaggerated.

    Even if your assumptions are right is an extra 2 hours on a 600 mile trip really going to kill you? Are you doing these trips weekly or is it like once a year? Seems worth it to me just to avoid the weekly trips to the gas station.

    Rather than make excuses and arguments about why they won't work and aren't feasible, try talking to some folks who own Tesla's, they almost universally love the cars. And that's even with alot of the shitty things that Tesla does. They take cross country road trips all the time. They use them in the winter, in the snow, in the heat and most won't ever go back to a gas car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Exactly why I've said that hybrids are today's technology, with plug-in hybrids getting a toe wet in the EV world. And contrary to what has been said here, hybrids do not decouple the engine from the wheels but rather power share with the electric motor through a transfer case type transmission. The electric is most efficient at starting from a dead stop and low speed driving while the IC engine is the more efficient motivator at highway speeds.
    Nope Chevy volt has only electric drive system
    And a generator powered by an gas engine.

    And it will burn rubber if you want it to, and will keep up with or out run most cars
    Until you hit about 85

    Mine gets charged by solar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar36 View Post
    Or... you can just put solar panels on your house, have a battery to store it during the day and then charge your EV off that. Or use grid level nuclear, or solar or wind, or hydro. EVs may use fossil fuels today, but they make the transition to energy sources that don't have their prices controlled by OPEC very easy.

    You're making all sort of negative assumptions, from the efficiency numbers you quoted to the difficulty of charging to disparage EVs that just aren't true or are exaggerated.

    Even if your assumptions are right is an extra 2 hours on a 600 mile trip really going to kill you? Are you doing these trips weekly or is it like once a year? Seems worth it to me just to avoid the weekly trips to the gas station.

    Rather than make excuses and arguments about why they won't work and aren't feasible, try talking to some folks who own Tesla's, they almost universally love the cars. And that's even with alot of the shitty things that Tesla does. They take cross country road trips all the time. They use them in the winter, in the snow, in the heat and most won't ever go back to a gas car.
    Your enthusiasm for electric vehicles is obvious but looking at some data regarding energy consumption in New Jersey your state uses more electrical power than it has the ability to produce within the state.

    Appears New Jersey ranks at the top for petroleum use.

    Still relies heavily on natural gas and pipelines. Uses nuclear but it's heavily subsidized.

    New Jersey does well with solar but has virtually no wind generating capasity--- which is odd considering all the shoreline available.

    The citizens of New Jersey are going to need to accept that low tax rates are not going to cut it if renewable energy becomes a priority.

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    If a third of all cars in the US were electric you would have nothing but BROWNOUTS and BLACKOUTS

    Because of the THIRD WORLD powergrids you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by salzburg View Post
    If a third of all cars in the US were electric you would have nothing but BROWNOUTS and BLACKOUTS

    Because of the THIRD WORLD powergrids you have.

    "Third World"...Excellent! Our liberals will celebrate and be guilt free when we decline to a "third world" level. Don't fear....you have Trudeau looking out for your best interests.


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