High schools are killing the economy

Four or five years ago a local high school had one of the best machining programs in the state of Utah. We along with other companies hired high school grads from there as well as a couple other machine shops. These kids were great they had a great machining foundation and were easy to teach. The school had a beautiful machine shop with some great equipment. A lot of the equipment was older which required the kids to use some old school methods, but I think it is better to learn the basics that way.

There was a meeting held by the school district four years ago and it was decided to terminate the program. All the equipment was liquidated and the space became classroom to teach Chinese. Kind of ironic that the space is now being used to teach Chinese, considering the amount of parts that are now being outsourced to China.

While I have nothing against learning another language it really bothers me how our society looks down upon trade jobs. A couple of decades ago it was a respected thing to be a machinist, auto mechanic or plumber. Now days it seems like society feels that if you aren’t sitting at a desk then you aren’t a success. This mentality is mind blowing to me. I know many very successful machinist who make a lot more than paper pushers.

When I was in high school I based my schedule on getting into college. I was told that I would need some foreign language and a bunch of other classes. The fact is that if you graduate from high school and have a pulse any local community college will take you. After a couple of semesters at the local community college you can transfer to the University. Had I known what I know now I would have taken more automotive or machining courses. Since I feel they would have more practical value in my life than a lot of the other courses I took.

The problem I have with current high school curriculum is that it is geared toward getting kids into college, but doesn’t actually prepare them for the real world. Not everyone that attends high school is a good fit for college. Those that end up going to college typically end up in serious debt by the time they finish. Or worse rack up the debt and then not finish.

According to CBSnews.com only .3% of students get full-ride scholarships. So why do we create and build curriculum around .3% of students? According to the BLS 65% of students continue on to go to college and of those 65% only 59% of those finish College. Which means in a graduating class of 1000 people only 383 people would actually graduate. That is only 38.3%. What about the other 62%? What are they expected to do without a degree?

My point is that we need a change in direction in our society. Not everyone in a functional society can sit behind a desk. We need to bring the trades back into our high schools. The kids that learned machining were making $12 - $15 bucks an hour starting compared to their counterparts who were only making $9 - $10. It is a great way for those who don’t earn a full ride scholarship to pay their way through school. For those who don’t go on to college they have a skill set they can fall back on. They can pursue a career in machining and make a great living for themselves.

Thoughts?

-Chad

Probability of getting a full-ride to college
How Rare Are Full-Ride Scholarships? - CBS News

High school to college rates:
College Enrollment and Work Activity of 2013 High School Graduates

College graduation rates:
Fast Facts

I'd not blame the high schools, they're responding to the demands of parents and politicians (not necessarily in that order). I did go to a trade school for machining back in the '70's, had listed my preferences as Auto Mechanics, Machining, and Auto Body in that order - so glad AM was full! Becoming a machinist (or as I like to call it: Blue Collar Physicist) was about the perfect trade for me, as it let my creativity and interest in mechanical things have the perfect outlet.

Sure, we certainly need to be offering technical courses to our young students, but that won't happen without support from society. Blame the parents, blame the pols, blame the culture, but blaming the schools themselves is misplaced. I've worked in education at the college level for most of my life, and I've seen how little some of the freshman know about "real world" problem solving and design. This STEMs (see what I did there?) from early education decisions, but that includes what the parents offer their children for stimulation and recreation: "Here, Junior - just sit in front of the TV/Computer/Ipad) and leave Mommy/Daddy alone". If parents wanted more trade/technical offerings for the sprogs they'd be available.

So if you think there's a problem (and there is), better start talking to the other parents you know.

Great point Milland, you are right my blame was misplaced. The schools are just responding to the demands of parents and society.

Yeah yeah. Someone is constantly on here bemoaning a lost industrial arts program.

I've seen several articles listing Machinists in the top 10 fastest declining professions. Technology is doing to manufacturing what it did to agriculture in the 1940-50s. When my dad was born, over half of all people in US where employed in some way in agriculture. Every school in the Midwest had a great ag program. Today, less than 3% of Americans are called "farmers". More than that are working in agriculture, but not more than single digits.

The schools are just reflecting the reality of the situation. The world needs less machinists, so schools are turning out fewer and fewer. There are not less machinists because schools are not educating them. There are less because we need less. If we suddenly needed more machinist, wages would go up and you would have youngsters beating the door down.

Everyone complains about a lack of skilled machinists to hire. I suspect 90% of them mean "skilled machinist willing to work for $12/hr".

Times change.

ewlsey said:

Everyone complains about a lack of skilled machinists to hire. I suspect 90% of them mean "skilled machinist willing to work for $12/hr".

Times change.

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Jeez, you're getting that much?? You hiring?

Milland said:

Jeez, you're getting that much?? You hiring?

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I gave up. Can't find anybody good.

Oh, you want good too? Can't help you there...

What you wrote is obvious in varying degrees to many people on this forum.
Been talked about many times.
Now we need to know what to DO about it.....
But that's been tried and discussed also.....so far "not much" progress to turn things around.
So your post will go down in history with the others.
Moot point?

To the OP, it is too bad that a high school shut down their program (was it Granite?), but there are a several programs here, there are trade schools in SLC and Utah valley, BYU has a huge shop with probably 90 machining centers and U of U has a machining and manufacturing program as well. Let alone a machine shop on every bloody corner in West Valley, if a young man or woman wanted to pursue a career in manufacturing I would seriously recommend Utah. If they wanted.........

Robert my ± 2

I'm programming swiss machines for $9.75 and hour. I think it's BS but, I hope my expierience will be worth the not crap wages. I could go drive a forklift for a temp agency and make more.

The problem isn't lack of machinists. It's the boss man wants to bid on $50k+ classic corvettes (he showed it to me on his phone) while the guy that is programming his machine is struggling to move out of his parents house.

The man knows if he pays me a fair wage I will buy my own machine and leave him holding his...

JLaugh said:

I'm programming swiss machines for $9.75 and hour. I think it's BS but, I hope my expierience will be worth the not crap wages. I could go drive a forklift for a temp agency and make more.

The problem isn't lack of machinists. It's the boss man wants to bid on $50k+ classic corvettes (he showed it to me on his phone) while the guy that is programming his machine is struggling to move out of his parents house.

The man knows if he pays me a fair wage I will buy my own machine and leave him holding his...

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That's not a boss - that's a jackass. If you're good enough to be programming Swiss machines at a modestly competent level, then you can find other companies that will bring you in for similar work at better pay. Please start looking around...

JLaugh said:

I'm programming swiss machines for $9.75 and hour. I think it's BS but, I hope my expierience will be worth the not crap wages. I could go drive a forklift for a temp agency and make more.

The problem isn't lack of machinists. It's the boss man wants to bid on $50k+ classic corvettes (he showed it to me on his phone) while the guy that is programming his machine is struggling to move out of his parents house
The man knows if he pays me a fair wage I will buy my own machine and leave him holding his...

Click to expand...

Don't be bitter, take what you've learned and run with it. If what you say is true(and I'm not doubting you) it's past time for you to move out of state, or move on. $9.75/hr in a machine shop is starting wages in 1993.

chky071 said:

Great point Milland, you are right my blame was misplaced. The schools are just responding to the demands of parents and society.

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Here is another way to look at it. Generally speaking, teachers and guidance counselors in the public school system don't have much experience outside the education profession. When what you know first hand, and what got you the job you have, is a college education, then it is somewhat logical that they will steer kids to go to college. It is what they know and what worked for them. Add to that the fact that trade schools are a viable business and educators view the trade schools as being specialized to teach the blue collar subjects and you can see how it makes sense.

My wife was a teacher for better than 20 years and while her teacher friends were good and honorable people, they really didn't know much about the world outside of the education profession. The town we lived in was a blue collar town with mining being the predominate industry, yet the high school my son went to there was solely focused on: 1) sports and 2) prepping kids for college.

I don't think the high schools are focusing less on industrial education because there are fewer jobs in those fields, or because the parents are demanding it. I think shop classes are inherently more dangerous than learning Chinese and the people running the schools don't really identify the value in those programs. There is exposure to bad things happening in a class that a lot of the school administrators view as something more along the lines of a screw around hour.

I don't think it would be fair to blame the lack of trade type education on the schools exactly, but I think it does have a lot to do with the "system" of education we have. Regardless, it is too bad that a lot of really good programs have been shut down over the years.

ewlsey said:

Everyone complains about a lack of skilled machinists to hire. I suspect 90% of them mean "skilled machinist willing to work for $12/hr".

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........ and has over $10K in personal tools to bring to the party, saving his boss from supplying same.....

PDW

ewlsey said:

Yeah yeah. Someone is constantly on here bemoaning a lost industrial arts program.

I've seen several articles listing Machinists in the top 10 fastest declining professions. Technology is doing to manufacturing what it did to agriculture in the 1940-50s. When my dad was born, over half of all people in US where employed in some way in agriculture. Every school in the Midwest had a great ag program. Today, less than 3% of Americans are called "farmers". More than that are working in agriculture, but not more than single digits.

The schools are just reflecting the reality of the situation. The world needs less machinists, so schools are turning out fewer and fewer. There are not less machinists because schools are not educating them. There are less because we need less. If we suddenly needed more machinist, wages would go up and you would have youngsters beating the door down.

Everyone complains about a lack of skilled machinists to hire. I suspect 90% of them mean "skilled machinist willing to work for $12/hr".

Times change.

Click to expand...

This is the most accurate thing I've read all day. The skill shortage isn't being caused by lack of training. It's being caused by lack of incentive, and terrible retention power in the industry.

There's lots of noise about job growth in US manufacturing, but I have yet to see wage adjustments that would suggest companies are actually trying to draw talent from other fields.

Laugh,,

How can you work for that even considering where you are. You work for the wrong place, unless everybody agrees that is what they will pay. I turned down way higher wages when my place shut down 27 YA. 17 when we shut down, best I could get, non-UNION, was 10 bucks. Wound up in the steel mill as Millwright 14.05 to start.
I swung heavy sledges at BIG nuts and I made more than your brainwork did.Tennessee, but still you should be more valuable. You think if VW had got a foothold there wages might have gone up? Fuck you VW pays twice as much. Moutahere!

You control your wage. You could be a to forklift driver as a temp and make more money. It IS crap wages, but you are where you are. You LIKE being underpaid. You ain't one of them Yankees that want a living wage. Hell, that is 5 bucks less than McD's workers want. YOU want a raise you gotta go to McD's. They HIRE at that wage up here WITH bennies offered. Enjoy what life you have. 20 grand a year, you are POOR even down there.

George

Boosted. Short term, Oil Cos are paying what is called big bucks for temps. 1,000 mi pipeline, listen to the Reps, 25000 jobs. AFTER the pipes are in the ground 25 jobs, them looking at monitors and gauges to see where the latest leak is. Keystone XL, same, thousands to get it in the ground very few needed to run it after and them low paid.

Oil Cos do not keep all them warm bodies on the payroll. They hire them when they need em. Sit on your thumbs till the next call for workers and hope your card number gets you on the crew.

George

To the OP:

It's up to you and fellow local industries to do something about it.

We've been working with the local high schools for several years. This is an effort of multiple local industries. The high schools are not supplying students ready for the real world. They changed the curriculum several years ago during the "no child left behind" campaign to a "theoretical path" of college bound. They took out all of the basic, everyday stuff and added things like Algebra II and Pre-Calculus to try and prepare kids for theoretical math used in advanced college degrees.

What nobody figured out during this transition was that less than 10% of college students are in these advanced degree programs and that isn't going to change (and that has been proven). And they also never figured that most of the students required to take these advanced theoretical math classes don't understand it and won't understand it (this also has been proven with several studies). It has very little practical application in everyday life.

There are only so many jobs for people with advanced degrees. What is everyone else going to do?

Manufacturing today requires more technically oriented personnel. Robotics, CNC and other computerized process controls and automation require a different skill set than was used even 15 years ago in the average manufacturing worker, but they don't require Masters or Ph.D's either.

If you look at industry today, somewhere about 20% on average will be considered "professional salaried" - meaning Engineers, Management, Accounting, Sales, Quality, etc. while about 70% could be classified as "technical employees" meaning they have to have some technical skill sets. The remainder would probably be classified as "general labor". The high schools (a lot of it because of national policy) have removed most things related to technical skills from the classroom and focused on the "professional salaried" path. Unfortunately, that is only 20% of the employment base.

They no longer teach kids how to read a ruler or tape measure as an example. (When I went through school, that was taught in 3rd grade.)

We've been working with the state (TN) to try and change this. We have been approved for a pilot program to bring back into the fold technical math (have to start somewhere, that is a big elephant you are chewing on) as an elective alternative to Algebra II and Pre-Calculus. It will hopefully start in the 2015 fall semester, but there are still some hurdles to overcome, namely getting the Universities and Colleges to OK it as an acceptable math for admission.

We've started an industrial robotics class. This is using real industrial robots and is taught by industry professionals such as myself. This was started in 2013 with the first class being the spring semester of 2014. The second class is now underway. Each participating company (8 local companies) donate an employee to teach a 2 week stint of 1.5 hours / day. There are 2 of us there each day. There isn't a huge burden on any one company this way and the students get to work with a wider variety of professionals with different experiences.

We developed the curriculum, the teaching protocols, the class projects, the tests, and we got it approved through the county and state levels. This took a year to get it approved and is the first class of it's kind in the state at the high school level.

We donated equipment and helped secure a grant from a local non-profit for additional equipment. We built the training cells of an evening after work. We solicited donations of other ancillary equipment from other local industrial suppliers, etc. So far it's been a large success. The kids really enjoy it and because of that, they learn.

It's pretty amazing to watch them. it has turned some of them around 180° to a much better track in life. A couple of the students weren't doing that well in school overall. But when they got into this class and got hands on with the robots - it was like a light bulb came on. Not only did they do very well in this class, but started doing better in most all of the other classes too. I think they could see the practical application of some of those other classes (practical application is sorely missing in today's high school classrooms). What was noticed during the first semester of this class is the lack of applicable math which has lead to our attempt to get the standards changed.

To make a difference, you have to do something. It is not an easy road I can assure you. However, it is a worthwhile road to travel.

Every generation claims to want their children to "have a better life" and "not have to sacrifice/work as hard as I had to".....and then they complain that "kids dont have any work ethic"

Well the UNIONS coffers are buldging full of membership dues....God forbid they would start a training program.

Seeing how they have fallen out of favor in the White house, they can stop spending so much on lobbyist's.

JLaugh said:

I'm programming swiss machines for $9.75 and hour.

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Your employer is a jackwad. I pay the kid that sweeps my floors more than that...................Learn as much as you can as long as you can, line up another gig, and bail. And when you bail, don't bother tellin you boss. Just don't show up on a Monday.