How are American engine mfgs able to make high HP with simple designs? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenfab View Post

    Everything I have heard from old timer mechanics is the fuel of today is terrible in comparison with the past.
    Only good thing nowadays is E85 or 85% ethanol. Pretty common pump gas here in Europe.
    Equivalent to about 112 american octane and not sensitive for advance.
    In a modern 4-valve combustion chamber 15:1 or 16:1 is probably ok compression ratio.
    Or 60psi boost at 7:1 compression

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    No need to wonder.

    OHC, Valve in head and L heads were popular all around the same time, but I suppose one could make a case for a progression.

    "If you want to lean something new, read an old book."
    My impression is that everything was tried all at the same time. Pre WWI cars have an unbelievable range of innovative designs from the simplest to the incredibly complex. Here's a 1912 Peugeot 7.6 litre DOHC 4 valve that beat engines twice it's size and won Indy in 1913. Some of the earliest IC engines were OHVs, it seems to me that flathead engines were an effort to simplify things, not the starting point.

    p4.jpg

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 72bwhite View Post
    wasn't the some law that every town had to have a Telegraph and or Telephone road
    Perhaps, but Telegraph in Detroit was the "unofficial" testing and proving grounds for just about every 60s and 70s American muscle car.
    Certainly not officially sanctioned by the car companies but a lot of testing against the competition occurred at nights on this road which would result in tweaking things back at the factory before a car or powertrain went into full production.
    A different era.

    One word describes why you can make so much more power now......Computers.
    Look at a old fuel injection setup and a new one, look at ignition curves now and an old mechanical distributor.....computer control.
    Then there is the computer simulation and trial of many designs which earlier meant building one, testing, guessing, building again.
    Bob

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    Some supporting facts from owning one LeMans engine program, and then getting smart and leasing engines from others, with a side note from small airplanes...

    LeMans cars...

    1. They all had impressive power-to-weight given the rules, air intake restrictions, spec fuel, etc. And in the much-lighter-than-any-street cars they were run in, they'd smoke most muscle cars. Remember, we raced against track versions of Ferraris, Porsches, GT40s. The acceleration differences could be stunning.

    2. They all required very elaborate warmups early in the day. Think a heater and pump running pre-warmed coolant through the engine for 30 minutes before it was started the first time. Yes, by the rules, the driver starts the car, by him/her self, sitting a the wheel. But that's not how it works for the warmup you don't see before the car comes out of the garage before the race. (This can't apply to say the World of the Outlaws, where they do engine changes on very short notice.... Wonder how that works... Same for drag racing?)

    3. Even LeMans engines aren't normally built to last 24 hours - those are special builds....

    I'm sure F1 is pretty similar, if not more extreme.

    As for small plane engines - well various regulatory and liability issues have caused their development to be kind of stuck, but their biggest claim to fame is very high reliability in a high consequence environment, at 80% power all the time, with 100% used for real on purpose every flight (that whole taking off bit...)

    If you had to drive your street car at 100% throttle for the first 5 minutes of every trip, followed by 80% for the rest of the trip, your street car engine would need lots more attention too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    If you had to drive your street car at 100% throttle for the first 5 minutes of every trip, followed by 80% for the rest of the trip, your street car engine would need lots more attention too.
    Thats exactly why they go over an aircraft engine so meticulously before every flight.

    As to the higher compression ratios I alluded to previously, it is why the power numbers are higher in todays car engines. Those higjer compression ratios are only possible because of computer controlled fuel , valve timing , aluminum heads and ignition. Together they adjust fuel air and timing so it can take advantage of the higher ratio. Without the computer , good luck.

    With direct fuel injection they can literally wait until the piston is just past tdc to prevent pre ignition, before charging the cylinder with fuel. Meaning 15 to 1 or more CR is no problem.

    Just my two cents worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Something I have been curious about: How can the likes of GM, Dodge make high HP engines utilizing simple technology (relative to the Euros and Japanese) ? When the Euros make high HP engines, they are complex , like the BMW in the McLaren F1 of the 90s, Ferrari engines, Mercedes engines in their high-end models and the Pagani, the W16 of the Bugatti.

    Look a the Dodge Demon, that thing makes 840hp (don't know if that is measured at the wheel or crank).

    American engines just seem soo much simpler than European high HP ones, is that an erroneous perception ?
    While a four cam Aston Martin V8 or Jag V12 is a marvel of design, a simple Ford, Chev, or Mopar V8 can do wonders. It was Ford's GT-40 that finally conquered Ferrari's V12 at LeMans, with a 7 liter "FE" big block V8. They did it again in 2016 with the V6. "Anyone can make it complicated, it takes a genius to make it simple." Not my words, but you get the idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Valves shmalves. Cams, heads, rockers, rollers, followers, pushrods, who needs all that junk. Here's 2400 hp and it lasts longer than ten seconds

    That is cool..and I thought I invented that engine ..even built a prototype. but ran out of time and never built the running model ..yes in gas .. sure would like to find all the specs on this engine..

    Fairbanks Morse Engine Opposed Piston Technology - YouTube

    Junker another cool engine Jumo 25 D Engine for airplanes - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Valves shmalves. Cams, heads, rockers, rollers, followers, pushrods, who needs all that junk. Here's 2400 hp and it lasts longer than ten seconds

    I once worked for Fairbanks Morse, but not the FME unit.... These engines are still used in small ships and tugs, including many US Navy Ships. The opposed piston design is still used for dual fuel applications, and has a 40,000 hour design life. Thaddeus and Charles would be proud....

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    p4.jpg[/QUOTE]

    What is the extra gear near the bottom towards the person. I it a oil/water pump or something else.
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rigor View Post
    Thats exactly why they go over an aircraft engine so meticulously before every flight.
    They doo ?

    Whats wrong with "Kick tire, Light fire, Push go button" ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Valves shmalves. Cams, heads, rockers, rollers, followers, pushrods, who needs all that junk. Here's 2400 hp and it lasts longer than ten seconds

    Naw....I like 3 sided engines....
    Napier Deltic - Wikipedia

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    There is nothing particularly simple about American engines.
    The likes of the Italians and Germans add parts but that's not where the complication is.
    The complicated part is the FEA modeling, testing and iteration.
    Then the real key...the engine management systems.
    Modern closed loop controls allow an angina to perform across a multidimensional regime, adapt to different fuels, and even learn the driving style of the operator.
    That alone is a huge boon.
    Now ad in variable valve timing, direct injection, and a few other enabling technologies and you have a modern engine.
    Even an old vortex v6 pushrod motor can be an excellent, powerful, efficient motor.
    The main reason for over head cams remains the ability to rev safely.

    Like I said, once the heads and combustion chambers flow, all the rest is just enabling technology for the engine management.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Naw....I like 3 sided engines....
    Napier Deltic - Wikipedia
    Learn something new every day...thnx

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Naw....I like 3 sided engines....
    How about something simple, like an H-16 ?


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    yeah they weigh twice as much. the reason foreign (racing) engines are so complex is because instead of increasing the MEP in MEP*RPM=BHP, other countries increased the RPM. what's useful in that is that to increase RPM in reciprocating parts, mass must be decreased faster than strength increased, leading to lighter engines and more power per mass unit. americans prefer bigger looking things, rather than smaller looking things with lots of doodads, so here we are. it's a big part of why american motorcycle companies don't go racing and usually go the way of the dodo after a few decades

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    Interesting read this thread.

    Guess it depends on what you're looking for. HP is great for long leg performance. If you really need to do actual work with a motor, it's all about torque.

    And, it's about good ol' American durability. And I stress OLD American durability. The new stuff sucks. Small motors being forced to produce more power than they can reliably produce over a long lifetime.

    I gotta 400cid Dodge that still pulls. 300cid Ford inline with 285k on it, and still runs without oil consumption. 460cid Ford same deal. They live forever.

    Mass generally equates to durability.

    They used to produce pretty little locomotives in Europe. They wouldn't run the long miles. There's still Baldwin loco's out there in the world doing their job.

    Ethanol...….just who are you trying to kid. Don't pee on my leg, and tell me it's rainin'. That crap attracts water like a magnet...really fun when it stratifies. Problems with hot starts, and immediate runup. Ridiculous when it comes to Eco Friendly. Requires more energy to produce than regular gasoline.

    Just my 2 cents...carry on

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    We see the same thing in diesel engines. A 1994 IH Powerstroke 7.3L engine makes about 210 hp and 450 ft-lbs. Several have run for 1 million miles.

    The new 6.7 Ford Powerstroke makes 450 hp and 950ft-lbs.

    Hell, I have truck with a Cummins L10, that's a 10 liter engine. It makes the same torque as the 6.7 Powerstroke but has 190 less horse power. The L10 powers a truck that grosses 56,000 lbs.

    Which one do you think will last longer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    The new 6.7 Ford Powerstroke makes 450 hp and 950ft-lbs.

    ... Cummins L10, that's a 10 liter engine. It makes the same torque as the 6.7 Powerstroke but has 190 less horse power.
    The Cummins L10 makes 260 hp ? How do you make it go up a hill ? A low-horse 1957 8V71 natural makes 318 and people bitch about them all the time, hp-wise. Those are 568 inches compared to the Cummins 610 ...

    Are you sure ?

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    Yes. The L10 was available anywhere from 220 to 300 hp. The difference is the governed max RPM. Mine tops out at 1900 RPM and the tag says 260hp.

    It has a tough time with hills.

    My brother has an IH dump truck with a DT466 mechanical. It makes all of 225 hp and 550 lb-ft. 9 gears is barely enough in the hills grossing 50,000+ lbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Yes. The L10 was available anywhere from 220 to 300 hp. The difference is the governed max RPM. Mine tops out at 1900 RPM and the tag says 260hp.

    My brother has an IH dump truck with a DT466 ...
    I'm feeling a lot better about the 671 ! Have y'all considered a swap for an old Detroit ?


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