How much wall for $5.6B...?
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    Default How much wall for $5.6B...?

    Some place I read Trump's proposed wall will only span 260 some miles.....

    Here's an interesting opinion on the $5.6B......


    Exactly what would the $5.6B Donald Trump is asking for Wall funding buy?



    John Carlton, Naval Architect, retired, or trying to, member RINA, SNAME.
    Answered:
    Using the current import price of raw steel slabs, and further assuming (rough numbers) a steel stake wall of 7,000,000 at 10″ x 10″ x 1/2″ steel stakes, 35′ long, for a total weight of 4,000,000 tons, roughly 4% of the total annual output of the US steel industry, that would go a long way to covering the cost of the (very) raw material.

    An order this size would likely need to have been placed a some years ago, to permit the rolling mill to be set up, and a “place in the queue” purchased. You do not drive down to Hometown in your pickup to buy 4,000,000 tons of steel. For major projects like this it is ordered well in advance.

    It would not, of course cover the cost of rolling the steel, and the staggering cost of installation, with the geographic and riverine obstacles and challenges. Nor would it cover things like land acquisition, cost benefit analysis, environmental impact studies. Then there is the massive cost of policing the “Wall,” if only for its own protection, as I have no doubt that it would become a favourite sport on the Mexican side of cutting it down with oxy-cutting torches, for the sheer fun of it, if nothing else.

    Any one of these items is likely sufficient to kill the whole project dead, especially considering that it would do nothing about flyovers, be only partially effective at best, and gobble up so much money that there would be none left for real solutions.

    Or, money left for such socialist nightmares as a healthy population, or an educated one.

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    How about instead of a wall, they just make a fence out of power lines? It would be a dual purpose fence. Any animals that get killed off by it could be used to feed the poor.

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    that aint for all of the wall and he never said it was, thats to add hundreds of miles to existing hundreds of mills of wall fence
    .
    actually border petrol wants heavy fence. cause they can see if people on the other side. Great Wall in China had troops on top of the wall that was like a road way too.
    .
    fence more practical if border petrol using police cars or jeeps
    .
    anybody with a torch can cut a fence. fence is only to prevent (slow down) people driving over the border in a car or truck and not even slowing cause nothing there like a fence to stop driving across it.
    .
    i suspect anti fence people worried the cost of there drugs will go up if a fence is put up. obviously it will make driving trucks full of drugs like cocaine across the border harder to do

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    Some place I read Trump's proposed wall will only span 260 some miles.....

    Here's an interesting opinion on the $5.6B......


    Exactly what would the $5.6B Donald Trump is asking for Wall funding buy?



    John Carlton, Naval Architect, retired, or trying to, member RINA, SNAME.
    Answered:
    Using the current import price of raw steel slabs, and further assuming (rough numbers) a steel stake wall of 7,000,000 at 10″ x 10″ x 1/2″ steel stakes, 35′ long, for a total weight of 4,000,000 tons, roughly 4% of the total annual output of the US steel industry, that would go a long way to covering the cost of the (very) raw material.

    An order this size would likely need to have been placed a some years ago, to permit the rolling mill to be set up, and a “place in the queue” purchased. You do not drive down to Hometown in your pickup to buy 4,000,000 tons of steel. For major projects like this it is ordered well in advance.

    It would not, of course cover the cost of rolling the steel, and the staggering cost of installation, with the geographic and riverine obstacles and challenges. Nor would it cover things like land acquisition, cost benefit analysis, environmental impact studies. Then there is the massive cost of policing the “Wall,” if only for its own protection, as I have no doubt that it would become a favourite sport on the Mexican side of cutting it down with oxy-cutting torches, for the sheer fun of it, if nothing else.

    Any one of these items is likely sufficient to kill the whole project dead, especially considering that it would do nothing about flyovers, be only partially effective at best, and gobble up so much money that there would be none left for real solutions.

    Or, money left for such socialist nightmares as a healthy population, or an educated one.
    Do you lock your doors at night?

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    As a retired construction worker I have a different point of view.

    A real rough approximation of labor to material cost is about half and half. Most construction companies are happy to make 10% to 15%.
    5.6B / 2= 2.8B the 50/50 cut
    2.8B *.85= 2.38B what is left to the workers after the company profits

    If the wall was built by legal workers. And they earned 2+ billion dollars.
    That money is going to be directly injected in the economy.

    Construction workers will be buying new trucks. Their significant others will be buying washers and dryers while whining about buying a new house. And and and

    All this while they are being taxed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    i suspect anti fence people worried the cost of there drugs will go up if a fence is put up. obviously it will make driving trucks full of drugs like cocaine across the border harder to do
    Just what portion of all the illegally smuggled drugs entering the U.S. would be stopped by his wall?
    At only 340 bucks an inch, it sounds like a good deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
    Just what portion of all the illegally smuggled drugs entering the U.S. would be stopped by his wall?
    At only 340 bucks an inch, it sounds like a good deal.
    A significant portion of drugs smuggled into this country come through ports of entry, not the southern border.

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    Most of the Mexican heroin and meth comes over the border. Most of the Fentanyl comes in the US mail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Miranda View Post
    Do you lock your doors at night?
    He took them completely off.

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    the wall will never get built. Even if the money is allocated, the K-Rat and butterfly rights people will come out of the woodwork to bitch and protest and the proposed costs will triple. And God forbid they should stumble across a 5000 year old dead Indian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    the wall will never get built. Even if the money is allocated, the K-Rat and butterfly rights people will come out of the woodwork to bitch and protest and the proposed costs will triple. And God forbid they should stumble across a 5000 year old dead Indian.
    Yep, and there are also states' rights and approval legal issues. Easy solution, put some teeth in labor laws where the penalties dissuade companies from hiring undocumented workers, but everyone want's their cheap labor, higher profits, and cheap stuff (democrats and republicans).

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    On the Texas border, there is no network of roads to even access the border from Lake Amistad to Lajitas, and I have serious doubts that a road can be built thru there for less than 6 billion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Most of the Mexican heroin and meth comes over the border. Most of the Fentanyl comes in the US mail.
    We need a damn wall around our Post Offices!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lazz View Post
    As a retired construction worker I have a different point of view.

    A real rough approximation of labor to material cost is about half and half. Most construction companies are happy to make 10% to 15%.
    5.6B / 2= 2.8B the 50/50 cut
    2.8B *.85= 2.38B what is left to the workers after the company profits

    If the wall was built by legal workers. And they earned 2+ billion dollars.
    That money is going to be directly injected in the economy.

    Construction workers will be buying new trucks. Their significant others will be buying washers and dryers while whining about buying a new house. And and and

    All this while they are being taxed.
    Or we could spend 5 billion on something actually useful and it will still be injected into the economy

    Like fixing our bridges

    or our schools

    or......

    not on a dumb ass wall in the middle of the desert where no one is crossing anyway

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    Besides the logical points that the OP pointed out, nobody wants the friggin' wall except Xenophobes like Trump and his supporters.

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    Thinking outside the box... Weld fins on the top of the stakes and sharpened points on the bottom. Then just drop them into place from planes. Who needs to build roads?

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    I find the "naval architect" numbers pretty incomprehensible.
    He may or may not be right about how many stakes are required- but thats only a small portion of the materials. There are gates, obviously, which cost a lot more per foot than stakes. Then, the stakes have to be attached to something- you dont just hammer em in. Which means more steel underground, embedded in probably 3-10 times the weight of the steel in concrete footings. Which need rebar. And excavation. And drainage, culverts, (which need grates) plus there are lights, motion and vibration sensors, and a bunch more. The steel cost, alone, is unlikely to be much more than 5% or so of the cost.
    And, as mentioned, there are no roads to a lot of this- and in many places, no dirt- the fence would be either in the river, or on very steep slopes that erode.

    The more detailed estimates I have seen, by people who, unlike Trump, have actually paid their contractors, are more in the $30 Billion to $75 Billion range, and that still probably doesnt cover all the emminent domain costs of "taking" private lands. The western half, which mostly already has fences (not walls- often the fences are 4' tall) is mostly public lands. The eastern half, where Trump wants his fence, is almost all private property. Add lawsuit costs- we have had multimillion dollar lawsuits in my county for close to fifteen years now over turning a few miles of abandoned RR right of way into a bike path.
    The costs of taking hundreds of miles of land, often splitting ranches, is going to be astronomical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    I find the "naval architect" numbers pretty incomprehensible.
    He may or may not be right about how many stakes are required- but thats only a small portion of the materials. There are gates, obviously, which cost a lot more per foot than stakes. Then, the stakes have to be attached to something- you dont just hammer em in. Which means more steel underground, embedded in probably 3-10 times the weight of the steel in concrete footings. Which need rebar. And excavation. And drainage, culverts, (which need grates) plus there are lights, motion and vibration sensors, and a bunch more. The steel cost, alone, is unlikely to be much more than 5% or so of the cost.
    And, as mentioned, there are no roads to a lot of this- and in many places, no dirt- the fence would be either in the river, or on very steep slopes that erode.

    The more detailed estimates I have seen, by people who, unlike Trump, have actually paid their contractors, are more in the $30 Billion to $75 Billion range, and that still probably doesnt cover all the emminent domain costs of "taking" private lands. The western half, which mostly already has fences (not walls- often the fences are 4' tall) is mostly public lands. The eastern half, where Trump wants his fence, is almost all private property. Add lawsuit costs- we have had multimillion dollar lawsuits in my county for close to fifteen years now over turning a few miles of abandoned RR right of way into a bike path.
    The costs of taking hundreds of miles of land, often splitting ranches, is going to be astronomical.
    Don’t forget there’s a Reservation that actually crosses the border with families living on both sides. That is, notionally, a sovereign nation.

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    As I type this I am sitting abut 30 miles North of the Mexico border. I am amazed at how much robbing, raping and pillaging isn't happening here.

    I'm also quite amazed that trump hasn't suggested, I mean dictated that we mine the border. As in make it a mine field. That seems to be a favorite way for dictators to keep people in their place. I totally would't put it past him and his red hat cult would support him doing it.

    You want to keep the people from Mexico and Central America from coming to the USA? Start fining and jailing anybody who gets caught hiring an illegal. It cost's very little to do and can actually make money for the government instead of paying for a stupid wall. But of course we know that isn't going to happen because there are too many people making a lot of money hiring illegals.

    Face it, they aren't coming here for the weather.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post

    You want to keep the people from Mexico and Central America from coming to the USA? Start fining and jailing anybody who gets caught hiring an illegal. It cost's very little to do and can actually make money for the government instead of paying for a stupid wall. But of course we know that isn't going to happen because there are too many people making a lot of money hiring illegals.

    Face it, they aren't coming here for the weather.
    I dont think you can jail a sitting president. But he definitely employes illegals, at his golf courses, hotels, and construction sites. And of course, he employs a lot of temporary work visa holders from abroad as well...


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