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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Don’t forget there’s a Reservation that actually crosses the border with families living on both sides. That is, notionally, a sovereign nation.
    Like trump cares about things like sovereignty or anything like that. He's bomb them if that's what it took. Remember, he's a jenius.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    I dont think you can jail a sitting president. But he definitely employes illegals, at his golf courses, hotels, and construction sites. And of course, he employs a lot of temporary work visa holders from abroad as well...
    And a wife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lazz View Post

    If the wall was built by legal workers. And they earned 2+ billion dollars.
    That money is going to be directly injected in the economy.
    .
    lol, if only it worked like that. Unless you think you should go even more debt (which even the three Keynesian's left on planet know you shouldn't do when times are good), that $2B has to come from taxes, say $4B of tax collected to pay out 2 (because they are so inefficient).

    So really you've taken something greater than $2B from the real economy, people and businesses, and put it into something that is hard to argue has any value. Even if do think it has value, its completely false economically to think the $2B as injection into the economy, its the remainder from a larger exploration from people and businesses. If essentially by force I take $10 from you, and give $5 to Joe Schmoe, that is NOT a $5 injection into the economy.

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  7. #24
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    The really pathetic thing here is that this could be a real chance at comprehensive reform...including security where and as needed.

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    The wall is a big topic fiscally, ethically, and with how it represents our position. It does seem that even though the wall is discussed so much, there are many important details that are left out. Just a few that come to mind.

    - The wall was never intended to go from sea to sea covering every inch. Not reasonably possible, and not the goal. The goal was to put it in the places where it would be most effective.

    - No barrier is 100% effective. No lock, safe, wall, bunker, whatever is 100%. But they make a huge difference at their goals: To deter, and to delay.

    - We spend almost a quarter of a TRILLION dollars every year paying the price of illegal immigration. Talking about $5 billion in wall funding like it's breaking the bank at... less than 0.3% of this years budget? It is a fiscally responsible decision that will well more than pay for itself with a swift return

    - I'm still a total skeptic of Trump but so far he is getting us OUT of the middle East, and is giving Congress good long periods to handle issues rather than just signing paper and making it so. The famous "we'll read what's in the bill after we pass it" from the previous administration is a red flag for anyone to commit to. We all paid the price for that arrogance.

    - California is off its' rocker with the new laws being passed there. The left is also fighting tooth and nail to prevent Voter ID laws, and to keep "Are you a US Citizen" off the Census. Seriously, illegal immigrants who have never assimilated to our culture really ARE being counted for seats in the House and in State elections. This is an enormous threat, above everything else. Costs aside, this is rigging a vote.

    I think it will be 10 years from now before I'm out of the "we'll see how this Trump thing goes", but so far I'm damn happy with the economy. Maybe everything is going to implode but it hasn't yet

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  10. #26
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    I haven't seen anything about human trafficking and sexual assault. I went with Wikipedia so the sources are old, because people like to be dismissive to any media outlet when it suits their agenda.

    Sexual assault of migrants from Latin America to the United States - Wikipedia

    "Cases of abuses are rarely reported or prosecuted, and data about these crimes is difficult to acquire or assess.[1]

    People who do not have legal permission to migrate from or through Mexico do not typically have effective access to the same criminal justice system as legal migrants.[3][1] In addition to the stigma attached to sexual assaults for anyone, they are unlikely to be willing to take actions which they believe may result in being unable to cross the border or remain across the border.[1][5] Because many of the offenses involve people in power or connected to organized crime, many women also fear retaliation for speaking up.[8]

    The newspaper La Jornada surveyed women attempting to migrate while they were in Mexican border cities. 30% said coyotes forced them to have sex as payment.[21]

    The United Nations estimated that among women crossing without husbands or families, as many as 70% were victims of some form of abuse.[5]

    At the time of the Amnesty International report, the non-profit estimated "as many as six in 10 women and girl migrants experience sexual violence during the journey."[1] It cites a 2006 study of already-detained migrant women in which 23 of 90 reported experiencing violence, with 13 saying the perpetrator was a state official.[1] The researchers involved believed actual numbers were likely higher.[1]

    According to a report by Splinter News, as many as 80% of women and girls coming to the United States from Central America are sexually assaulted.[3]

    Michelle Brané of the Women's Commission for Refugee Women and Children told Tucson Weekly that "nonprofit groups and even the U.S. Office of Refugee Resettlement ... estimate that the vast majority of women and female children encounter some sort of sexual assault en route to the United States," and that "it's become the norm, and in many cases with female children, they just assume that there's been some sort of incident."[5]"

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    that aint for all of the wall and he never said it was . . .
    Actually, he DID say it was for a wall and tweeted a picture of the design he wanted a couple weeks ago. Steel slats poking up out of the ground and into the air. To be paid for by Mexico.

    Trump tweets 'Steel Slat Barrier' image as wall funding debate rages

    I suspect the vast majority of us in the US want people to be here legally - citizens, green cards, visas etc. We also want to find a way to curb both demand and supply of drugs -- the largest problem related to this and much of it of our own doing.

    What a majority of us also want -- as evidenced by the latest Congressional elections -- is a president that doesn't spin self-serving lies daily, a bit of mutual respect for others, and some sense of intelligence and planning in everything from relations with our allies, to health care, nuclear threats, abandoning the Kurds, giving Russians free reign . . . and, yes, a sensible immigration, work, and border security policy.

    As for anyone with a torch cutting the fence -- just as true for the steel slats design Trump advocated and posted. Even easier, lasso the top of a slat and pull it to ground. Nice long lever arm there. This based on Trump's tweeted design, the smartest man (self-described) in the universe.

    And as for truck loads of drugs being stopped by a wall -- you do realize that semi trucks with drugs hidden inside aren't doing an off-road act to get into the US? Our own Homeland security says they're coming through normal ports of entry -- just hidden. Steel slats stuck in the boonies and river beds won't stop that.

    It's the job of Congress to oversea and authorize expenditures. Right now the House doesn't think millions of steel slat wall (not on hand, per the above) makes all that much sense.

    Be nice to see Congress critters doing a bit less either reacting to Trump or kissing his rear -- and come up with a sensible immigration policy, enforce existing laws on employment, provide worker passes so we still have an ag segment in states like Texas and CA -- and yes -- some combination of fences, monitoring, and maybe even a bit of wall here and there where it might make sense.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethloffMfg View Post
    . . .

    - We spend almost a quarter of a TRILLION dollars every year paying the price of illegal immigration. . . .
    You know, I've wondered about that. Turns out that while some conservative sources are reporting the $250 billion numbers, others have numbers showing illegals are a slight net positive in economic terms (mainly for the people hiring them or getting the fruits, vegetables, cheaper goods, clean houses, tended landscapes etc.).

    Best number I could find is from our own GAO; at a time when actual illegal entry was higher. It put the number at $2 to $19 billion all things considered: U.S. GAO - Illegal Aliens: National Net Cost Estimates Vary Widely

    To put this in perspective, our failure to stop phone spam and fraud is apparently right in the middle of that $2 to 19 billion number. I'm all for everyone having legal status in this country (citizen, green card, visa, etc.) -- but personally I've never been raped or robbed or murdered by one of those Mexicans apparently deluging the country, despite living in California. Don't personally know anyone who has been. Probably eaten a bunch of food picked or cooked by them, though. Wouldn't be surprised if some of our most prosperous contractors, landscapers, manufacturers, etc. have hired them. Point being, what's common is people (like Trump) hiring illegals -- and not what Trump said and says to get/stay elected -- that they're mostly murderers and rapists and all of 'em need to be put behind bars (well, OK, slats).

    On the other hand, spam phone calls ARE a daily pain. And I do personally know an otherwise intelligent senior who was scammed out of $10,000+ How about a $1 billion "wall" to stop that?

    More of putting this in perspective -- since there are life threatening issues at stake -- just the cost of the opioid crisis is now estimated at $100 billion per year. And it's killing people. This is the drug crisis planned and executed by our own pharmaceutical industry: Economic Toll of Opioid Crisis in U.S. Exceeded $1 Trillion Since 21 | Altarum Looks to be around 5-10x the immigration cost?? And more than that in terms of lives lost. Drugs are a huge problem in the US -- and most of that is of our own making. How about $5 billion to discover the genetic basis and cures for addiction?

    So, what's a reasonable sense of proportion here? Well, in my mind, we ought to deal with the entire immigration issue, just as we ought to deal with spam, infrastructure, education, health care, pharma fraud, foreign tampering, nuclear, and climate threats, and all the rest. But what Trump is doing -- and the nation permitting -- is stoking fear, anger, and resentment out of his own narcissism and political gain.

    It took exceptional leadership -- and compromise -- to found this nation. I'd hope a combination of lying "leadership" and ego trips don't hasten its decline.

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  15. #29
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    There are some serious issues we need to take care of at home, totally separate from immigration. I absolutely agree with that.

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    IMO, If the wall isn't built, it will be entirely because of political roadblocks in Washington and have nothing to do with geographic, economic, social, or ecological barriers. State, county, and national government does this kind of thing every day with roads and other bits of infrastructure. If ANYTHING is in the way, they'll build around it or move it, but it won't stop the job. That's the easy part.

    I like the concept and philosophy of "the wall," dunno if I'm all for it though. It's probably a lot like Trump's election. You'll end up with people against it and people who aren't for it, but don't want the alternative, and in the end everyone will just have to make the best of it because the next president's going to have a whole new mess for us to disagree on.

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  18. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post
    . . . in the end everyone will just have to make the best of it because the next president's going to have a whole new mess for us to disagree on.
    Seems to me, leadership is getting people to agree on their shared objectives -- and the sacrifice, work, and investment required to achieve it.

    Liberal, conservative, or somewhere in between . . . at root we all want pretty much the same things.

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    I heard that more then 50% 0f the drugs from South America come through legal border crossing points. Almost 100% of the fnetynal comes in the mail from China. How about spending 1 billion on drug treatment.
    They built flood control tunnels under the border and the border patrol partially walled then up causing flooding and killing Amercians. they refuse to admit responsibility. There rare treaty obligations that no wall can cause flooding or deaths by flooding to Mexico.
    Many sections of the wall have been wiped away by flooding. Do you really think Texans like the idea of conceding the Rio grande river to Mexico by building the wall on our side of the riverbed. I am surprised that the Cubans in Florida are not complaining that trump has eliminated the provision of Cuban refugees get asylum as soon as they touch us soil. Maybe that was already eliminated years ago?
    Bill D

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    I beleive a sitting president can be sent to jail. it is just customary to delay the trial until he is no longer in office. That is one reason a sitting president is not allowed to drive on a public road. the Secret Service does not want him to get in an accident and have to face trial. But many of his bribe and tax evasion charges have statutes of limitations and must be charged before he is out of office.
    Bill D.

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  23. #34
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    I have to ask a question, the berlin wall.

    Where things better in communist berlin then or mexico/central america now? Because people tried to make it across that wall. And it was covered in barb wire with armed gaurds.

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    Yup, skip the wall.......Ma duce, Intersecting fields of fire Don't shoot anyone in the back.

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    If only we hadn’t given Iran $150 billion, against US law without approval by breaking it up into small payments, with no stipulations Not long after we ‘crashed’ the newest spy drone we had gently into one of their runways. If only. But our schools didn’t need it.

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    I know walls don't work. pelosi, shumer, tear down the wall around your houses.

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    Today trump says he never really meant that Mexico would pay for the wall. I think he means anyone who believes what he said is stupid, stupid, stupid. You are only supposed to belive what he is saying today not stuff from yesterday.
    Kind of like the national enquirers response to a libel suit of "who would believe anything we print". We can not commit libel because no one should believe anything we say anyway.
    Bill D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    Today trump says he never really meant that Mexico would pay for the wall. I think he means anyone who believes what he said is stupid, stupid, stupid. You are only supposed to belive what he is saying today not stuff from yesterday.
    Kind of like the national enquirers response to a libel suit of "who would believe anything we print". We can not commit libel because no one should believe anything we say anyway.
    Bill D
    'Paying' can mean many things.

    Getting a new deal on NAFTA is a good start. Billions come fast and plenty through FAIR trade.


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