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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    Maybe you’re conveniently forgetting but Obama had eight years to end it. Obama spent $2.0 trillion on those inherited wars he could’ve ended. Every single one of them is a POS. They’re in it for themselves and their special interest groups. #43 will go down in history as the worst president we’ve ever had.
    You are correct, I was similarly disappointed, but the problem became, when you make a mess[shock and awe] you really have to clean it up

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    Maybe you’re conveniently forgetting but Obama had eight years to end it. Obama spent $2.0 trillion on those inherited wars he could’ve ended. Every single one of them is a POS. They’re in it for themselves and their special interest groups. #43 will go down in history as the worst president we’ve ever had.
    bush 43 will be 2nd worst. Trump will beat him for worst president by far. At least bush didn't lie every time he opened his mouth like trump does. Sometimes the size of the lie does matter though. bush and his weapons of mass destruction claim about Iraq was a pretty huge one that cost us trillions of dollars and thousands of our troops lives as well as many more thousands of Iraqis.

    If it was so easy for Obama to end the bush wars why didn't bush end them and why hasn't trump ended them?

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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Wait, now lets walk through this,

    You said you built a fence and related it to break ins, not me
    No, I did not say that. I said:
    I have a fenced yard and locks on my doors, but I still had my house burglarized last year. They don't stop everyone, but that doesn't mean I'm going to tear down the fence and leave the doors unlocked...
    I did not build my fence, it was there when I moved in. The locks were already on the doors, too.

    The POINT, which you are determined to pretend was not the POINT- is that just because someone breached the fence does not negate it's purpose.

    The REASON I made that POINT, was to counter the false narrative- that since some people will not be deterred by a border wall, it means the wall is "useless".

    You were imagining things when you said this:
    No, it means they did not serve the purpose you are projecting as your intent
    I never stated anything of the sort. In fact, I explicitly rejected that argument up front.
    They don't stop everyone, but that doesn't mean I'm going to tear down the fence and leave the doors unlocked...
    Any "intent" you read into that is on you. It would be kind of hard for me to "intend" anything of something I did not build.

    I further clarified it when I posted the PURPOSE of the border fence is to be a force multiplier, not a force unto itself.

    I am pretty sure any objective reader will not have difficulty understanding what I wrote.

    I lock my shop when I am not there. Does that mean it's impossible to break into my shop?

    Of course not. Yet even though I KNOW that, I still lock the doors. I suspect you do the same.

  6. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethloffMfg View Post
    Probably the reason those representatives of the border don't want a wall... is because the entire border is a heavy blue line. That is what happens when you have regular illegal immigration. The Democratic party is the party of illegal immigration. They want them because their children are voters, and many times the illegals themselves are voting. Their policies are so out of this f'in world, so destructive, that they need to rig votes to keep their seats.
    No.

    Why do those on the right have such a strained relationship with facts? It starts with your President and trickles down to the 38% of the US who still support him.

    Just because something on Rush or Hannity is repeated daily does not make it true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DethloffMfg View Post
    Yes, illegals themselves are casting votes. And their children becoming naturalized, vote (legally) in a very skewed way. And they are being counted on the census and seats in the House are being given because of it.

    I still do not understand or agree with the bump stock ban. It was popular and I think that's what they had going for them.

    I do not agree with 'assault weapons' bans. These weapons don't exist for hunting deer. They exist so that we have the extreme means of defending ourselves from enemies, foreign or domestic. It seems that the enemy is completely domestic at this point and I'm surprised we've gone so far down this road. But the government can't have us be able to resist their great changes.

    This 'equality of outcome' thing is always encroaching. Yes, the very very rich in this country get it EASY. Albeit they already pay an enormous portion of the taxes.

    I think it is false to say that we need to raise taxes at all. We need to CUT spending, massively. We spend so much damn money! We have to fix this. Not through cutting the legs off of productive people. I really find it hard to have any justification for even a fraction of what we spend on our military, when it can't even fight todays war.
    I know several hunters who like and use them for hunting. Most have always been around firearms.

    They find the utility and security of it fits thier world view. Also in thier cases it does seem they like the novelty of them and can easily afford them.

    I saw the police on the news hunting down the most rescent shooter of a police woman and I noticed they had AR’s drawn. I think they feel them useful though a citizen carrying one would be stopped right away.

    I live in Texas and there were some guys toting them around in public places where children go! To me that is just inappropriate rude and bullying type behavior. It is wrong to tote those into a family or public place. Now a place is best if they post signage or letters on the door forbidding this.

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  9. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    Trump doesn’t hold a candle to Bush #2. Obama did the same shit this guy is doing and every other president before him has done, take care of their base. They’ve bankrupted the country in the name of National Security. Obama could’ve ended the Iraq and Afghanistan wars but he didn’t, he gave it to Trump. The last time I looked, Obama added $8.58 trillion to the national debt.

    This was one of the longest economic expansions in the history of our country and not a single penny was spent on deficit reduction. The bill is coming like a freight train and it’s going to make 09 look good.
    No, Bush added that debt with his tax cuts.
    What’s more Obama dramatically reduced the operating deficit.
    You can give Obama the 900m for the ARRA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    No, I did not say that. I said: I did not build my fence, it was there when I moved in. The locks were already on the doors, too.

    The POINT, which you are determined to pretend was not the POINT- is that just because someone breached the fence does not negate it's purpose.

    The REASON I made that POINT, was to counter the false narrative- that since some people will not be deterred by a border wall, it means the wall is "useless".

    You were imagining things when you said this: I never stated anything of the sort. In fact, I explicitly rejected that argument up front.

    Any "intent" you read into that is on you. It would be kind of hard for me to "intend" anything of something I did not build.

    I further clarified it when I posted the PURPOSE of the border fence is to be a force multiplier, not a force unto itself.

    I am pretty sure any objective reader will not have difficulty understanding what I wrote.

    I lock my shop when I am not there. Does that mean it's impossible to break into my shop?

    Of course not. Yet even though I KNOW that, I still lock the doors. I suspect you do the same.
    So...
    Because some criminals will get guns no matter what measures we take we should have increased gun control.
    I’ll go along with that reasoning.

    Thing is we already lock our doors on the border.
    Would you put a 30 fence around your house in an already safe neighbor hood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Some/many government jobs depend on giving my tax dollars to non citizens...

    63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs | Center for Immigration Studies

    My Son in in law was renting houses to such people in California...

    Wide open borders... perhaps we should just invite everybody in China to come to the USA..

    Agree many China people would go out and get a job...
    The only people talking about open borders are breitbart.

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    are breitbart. I don't know what that word means.. I have worked with guys from all parts of the world...legal guys who are now my neighbors.

    The USA is just not big enough for everybody to come...

    422.5 million in South America alone...

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    are breitbart. I don't know what that word means.. I have worked with guys from all parts of the world...legal guys who are now my neighbors.

    The USA is just not big enough for everybody to come...

    422.5 million in South America alone...
    Again, the only people talking about is the right wing fear mongers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Again, the only people talking about is the right wing fear mongers.
    Found an article on that ,,but it looks stupid so Im not going to read it..You can read it if you wish.

    I don't think much of Sanders,Very likely he lives high on the hog and could /would not hold a real job.

    Don’t believe the right-wing fear-mongering about turning into Venezuela – here’s Democratic Socialists actually want – Alternet.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Found an article on that ,,but it looks stupid so Im not going to read it..You can read it if you wish.

    Don’t believe the right-wing fear-mongering about turning into Venezuela – here’s Democratic Socialists actually want – Alternet.org
    I don’t give alternet much creedance.
    They are too ideologically rigid.
    Like Limbaugh or FOX

    Seriously though, no one is talking about open borders except those that want to scare you.

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    qT:[Seriously though, no one is talking about open borders except those that want to scare you.]

    I not scared ,,I just think open borders are stupid..Likely I could not get on an airplane with not my driver license...amnd people want to come to the USA with no credentials at all.

    yup, there you go

    He should get/make the $15 an hour he thinks everybody should make.

    Bernie Sanders Buys His Third House | Vanity Fair

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    yup, there you go

    He should get/make the $15 an hour he thinks everybody should make.

    Bernie Sanders Buys His Third House | Vanity Fair
    What?
    Someone who works hard shouldn’t be able to buy nice things?
    When Cortez got to DC she had to borrow money to settle in.
    By the same token, shouldn’t some one who works hard be able to eat?

    And what does this have to do with a border wall?

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    The people who really want to get into the USA are going to get in. By legal means or over a wall or fence. Some will come through legal channels. Some will tunnel under or go over. I'm right near the border now and feel as safe as I do at home in Michigan. This whole thing is a made up manufactured scare tactic that trump is using to get the conversation away from things like him banging porn stars and colluding with communists. Plain and simple.

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    I guess Bernie Sanders ideas are just about the opposite of mine.

    Ben Carson.. there is a guy who beat all odds, worked hard . deserves to have what he has...He has my respect..

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    I guess Bernie Sanders ideas are just about the opposite of mine.

    Ben Carson.. there is a guy who beat all odds, worked hard . deserves to have what he has...He has my respect..
    Your fallacy is ad hominum.


    In any case, Carson is a savant.
    Sanders is a dedicated public servant.

    So, false equivalency there.

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    Your fallacy is ad hominum. What is that? Guess you are a lot smarter than me .. I'm not even going to look that one up..

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Your fallacy is ad hominum. What is that? Guess you are a lot smarter than me .. I'm not even going to look that one up..
    Why not?
    Afraid to learn?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    No, I did not say that. I said: I did not build my fence, it was there when I moved in. The locks were already on the doors, too.

    The POINT, which you are determined to pretend was not the POINT- is that just because someone breached the fence does not negate it's purpose.

    The REASON I made that POINT, was to counter the false narrative- that since some people will not be deterred by a border wall, it means the wall is "useless".

    You were imagining things when you said this: I never stated anything of the sort. In fact, I explicitly rejected that argument up front.

    Any "intent" you read into that is on you. It would be kind of hard for me to "intend" anything of something I did not build.

    I further clarified it when I posted the PURPOSE of the border fence is to be a force multiplier, not a force unto itself.

    I am pretty sure any objective reader will not have difficulty understanding what I wrote.

    I lock my shop when I am not there. Does that mean it's impossible to break into my shop?

    Of course not. Yet even though I KNOW that, I still lock the doors. I suspect you do the same.


    False narrative, it is your stock in trade, about the only narrative you seem to have


    so you brought up your fence to say...that it didn't work, so, uhh.. that is no reason to take it down, so uhhh, yeah, sure, whatever

    We are not talking about taking a fence down

    anywhere.

    most people, I would hazard a guess, the infinitely vast majority, believe in appropriate border fencing.

    But a thousand miles of wall?

    Nope

    here is the thing, your discussion of private property does not relate to countries. You can pretend it makes sense, but it doesn't. Your silly comment about your own fence just proves it.


    OF course you can have a fence. It is your private property.

    This is at best public property, at worst someone elses private property, or Native American reservation. If you are lucky 40 percent of the people support the wall. How about asking about the real cost, and the emminent domain required to get it done? That number drops even further.





    No you want to build a 15 foot concrete wall around your lot in your subdivision, with the claim that it will reduce crime, you will get shut down. Damn well your neighbor is not going to pay for it.



    Because it is stupid


    just like this border wall is stupid

    It won't stop illegal immigration

    It won't stop drug trafficking

    It will just waste money

    Money that is better spent elsewhere

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