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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    The people who really want to get into the USA are going to get in. By legal means or over a wall or fence. Some will come through legal channels. Some will tunnel under or go over. I'm right near the border now and feel as safe as I do at home in Michigan. This whole thing is a made up manufactured scare tactic that trump is using to get the conversation away from things like him banging porn stars and colluding with communists. Plain and simple.

    That supposes they can actually get in. There are many who do not get in and they may choose to try again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    That supposes they can actually get in. There are many who do not get in and they may choose to try again.
    People are willing to die in the desert to get in.
    Consider that.
    People are willing to brave mine fields to escape to a better place.

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    It would at the very least be good to have some fencing or barrier where it is wise.

    We still need to hear more details from both sides of the issues as it seems no one wishes to give much definition to what they believe should be done.

    The fact that before election time there was less difference of opinion as to having a wall whereas now they claim it has changed to anti wall is suspicious to me. Are they just mainly posing for a big shootout? If so Trump will play the real spoiler as he is very stubborn and tends to not cave.

    So since some people seem to have turned against a wall in that time I question whether it is true there is that many against now. Maybe. It could be that politicians and faulty polls are what we really are seeing numbers wise. The hostility is so great I think it is possible it could be the case that each side is less than truthful or at least they can be less than forthcoming with detailed solution of the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    It would at the very least be good to have some fencing or barrier where it is wise.

    We still need to hear more details from both sides of the issues as it seems no one wishes to give much definition to what they believe should be done.

    The fact that before election time there was less difference of opinion as to having a wall whereas now they claim it has changed to anti wall is suspicious to me. Are they just mainly posing for a big shootout? If so Trump will play the real spoiler as he is very stubborn and tends to not cave.

    So since some people seem to have turned against a wall in that time I question whether it is true there is that many against now. Maybe. It could be that politicians and faulty polls are what we really are seeing numbers wise. The hostility is so great I think it is possible it could be the case that each side is less than truthful or at least they can be less than forthcoming with detailed solution of the issue.
    In general we DO have barriers where it is wise.
    Where it’s deemed appropriate there’s even funding for upgrades and extensions.

    We had bipartisan comprehensive reform ready to go, but McConnell shut it down rather than let Obama sign it.
    It included DACA money for security, and a whole host of effective policies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    It would at the very least be good to have some fencing or barrier where it is wise.

    We still need to hear more details from both sides of the issues as it seems no one wishes to give much definition to what they believe should be done.

    The fact that before election time there was less difference of opinion as to having a wall whereas now they claim it has changed to anti wall is suspicious to me. Are they just mainly posing for a big shootout? If so Trump will play the real spoiler as he is very stubborn and tends to not cave.

    So since some people seem to have turned against a wall in that time I question whether it is true there is that many against now. Maybe. It could be that politicians and faulty polls are what we really are seeing numbers wise. The hostility is so great I think it is possible it could be the case that each side is less than truthful or at least they can be less than forthcoming with detailed solution of the issue.
    Election 2016 National Exit Poll Results and Analysis - ABC News

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...s-want-a-wall/

    30 second search YMMV

    not so much variance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    In general we DO have barriers where it is wise.
    Where it’s deemed appropriate there’s even funding for upgrades and extensions.

    We had bipartisan comprehensive reform ready to go, but McConnell shut it down rather than let Obama sign it.
    It included DACA money for security, and a whole host of effective policies.
    True the existing walls are likely in good places yet it does not mean the walls we have are the total of wise places walls should be. I think the wise actions in that regard requires some more efforts barriers and what ever works that the Democrats suggest yet the improvements must be valid and that includes barriers and other measures.

    What kind of difference will a special drone accomplish?

    It is like having the door bell camera and voice it will not likely always stop a determined person. Proximity of Law enforcement is finite barriers will have a effect as to divert them to a more manageable location where the concentration of the Border Patrol can better use thier numbers.


    I really understand the human needs there are for this problem. I think it is a damn discouraging thing to build barriers. Yet the case for wise constructing seems the reality and is a bitter pill to me.

    It would be better to purchase 50 miles of Mexico and interdict before the river. (In Texas) Incorporate all towns into being a part of the US and Mexico. Let the cartels and human coyotes dig under the river.

    If I lived on the border I would not like a wall on my land yet it does not mean that I would not agree to it. I am open to other things besides a barrier. It makes me angry this human emergency continues.

    Seems the Dems just want to be disagreeable to me. If they are not careful they will lose face in the standoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    It would at the very least be good to have some fencing or barrier where it is wise.

    We still need to hear more details from both sides of the issues as it seems no one wishes to give much definition to what they believe should be done.

    The fact that before election time there was less difference of opinion as to having a wall whereas now they claim it has changed to anti wall is suspicious to me. Are they just mainly posing for a big shootout? If so Trump will play the real spoiler as he is very stubborn and tends to not cave.

    So since some people seem to have turned against a wall in that time I question whether it is true there is that many against now. Maybe. It could be that politicians and faulty polls are what we really are seeing numbers wise. The hostility is so great I think it is possible it could be the case that each side is less than truthful or at least they can be less than forthcoming with detailed solution of the issue.
    1. There already is a lot of fencing and walls in some areas. I just drove I-10 from East of El Paso to Deming New Mexico and there is a lot of fencing and walls for hundreds of miles.

    2. You are supposing that a majority of citizens favored a fence before the election. That isn't necessarily true, no matter what trump or rush says. His base seems to believe anything that he says. That's about 60 million out of 300 million.

    3. Republican politicians have made it their cause for decades to oppose anything that the Democrats propose. Time for some serious paybacks. I'm for opposing absolutely anything that trump proposes. As to people changing their minds about a wall, you must be talking about the ones that voted for him and are now seeing what a mistake they made. Nothing but lies from trump. All day. Every day. If his lips are moving he is lying. If he is tweeting he is lying. I wouldn't trust him to tell me what day it is.

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    This wall thing kind of reminds me of when I was a child and my dad would puff away on a cigarette and tell us kids to never smoke cigarettes. I'd ask him why and his answer was usually "because I said so".

    Most of the trumpers have lost all objectivity. They just want a wall because trump said we need one. Is it to keep drugs out? Drugs will come in no matter what. We could build a wall 100 feet high and it won't keep drugs out.

    Is it to keep Mexicans out? Why do we want to keep them out so badly? Because it is illegal for them to be here. Why is it illegal for them to be here? Because I said so. Just like my dad used to tell us kids.

    How about we have a conversation about why they come here in the first place? They aren't coming here for the weather. Does anyone really think that they just come here to commit crimes? If you do you are a bigger moron than trump is. He has had two immigrant wives and hires them to work for low wages at his properties. But why is it OK for him to do it and not the rest of us. Because I said so. Just like my dad used to tell us.

    trump has been part of a wealthy family since he was born. He has been a millionaire since he was nine years old from what I have read. Lots of similarities to the North Korean dictators. Spoiled from day one.

    Personally I would like to see someone more like Obama that wasn't born with a platinum spoon in his mouth. trump has no idea of the kind of things most Americans face, let alone Mexicans and Central Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    True the existing walls are likely in good places yet it does not mean the walls we have are the total of wise places walls should be. I think the wise actions in that regard requires some more efforts barriers and what ever works that the Democrats suggest yet the improvements must be valid and that includes barriers and other measures.

    What kind of difference will a special drone accomplish?

    It is like having the door bell camera and voice it will not likely always stop a determined person. Proximity of Law enforcement is finite barriers will have a effect as to divert them to a more manageable location where the concentration of the Border Patrol can better use thier numbers.


    I really understand the human needs there are for this problem. I think it is a damn discouraging thing to build barriers. Yet the case for wise constructing seems the reality and is a bitter pill to me.

    It would be better to purchase 50 miles of Mexico and interdict before the river. (In Texas) Incorporate all towns into being a part of the US and Mexico. Let the cartels and human coyotes dig under the river.

    If I lived on the border I would not like a wall on my land yet it does not mean that I would not agree to it. I am open to other things besides a barrier. It makes me angry this human emergency continues.

    Seems the Dems just want to be disagreeable to me. If they are not careful they will lose face in the standoff.
    No one ever said securitywasnt important.
    Seriously.
    The objection is to a symbol of xenophobia trump needs for his base.
    IIRC there were 4b in security money in the last bill McConnell wouldn’t let see the light of day.

    FYI we could have had that lane when we bailed out Mexico.

    But really, do we want to be East Germany and NK, keeping people from a better life?
    How would trumps wall, and it’s 150’ wide rightof way prevent the suffering?
    It wouldn’t, it just means it could be ignored by the northerners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    This wall thing kind of reminds me of when I was a child and my dad would puff away on a cigarette and tell us kids to never smoke cigarettes. I'd ask him why and his answer was usually "because I said so".

    Most of the trumpers have lost all objectivity. They just want a wall because trump said we need one. Is it to keep drugs out? Drugs will come in no matter what. We could build a wall 100 feet high and it won't keep drugs out.

    Is it to keep Mexicans out? Why do we want to keep them out so badly? Because it is illegal for them to be here. Why is it illegal for them to be here? Because I said so. Just like my dad used to tell us kids.

    How about we have a conversation about why they come here in the first place? They aren't coming here for the weather. Does anyone really think that they just come here to commit crimes? If you do you are a bigger moron than trump is. He has had two immigrant wives and hires them to work for low wages at his properties. But why is it OK for him to do it and not the rest of us. Because I said so. Just like my dad used to tell us.

    trump has been part of a wealthy family since he was born. He has been a millionaire since he was nine years old from what I have read. Lots of similarities to the North Korean dictators. Spoiled from day one.

    Personally I would like to see someone more like Obama that wasn't born with a platinum spoon in his mouth. trump has no idea of the kind of things most Americans face, let alone Mexicans and Central Americans.
    Platinum spork and a paper plate.

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    This is the problem

    right wingers say all media is leftist and biased, so I can only listen to my hero

    he tells me the libral Democrats want open borders,and all the illegals are voting, when they are not raping and murdering


    Democrats say they are in favor of border security, vote 1.6 billion for it, but not a wall, trumpski says OPEN BORDERS OPEN BORDERS WAAAAAAAHHHH



    her is the thing

    who arrested more illegals than anyone in 30 years?



    Yeah, not trumpki, the socialist Obama

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    . . . The REASON I made that POINT, was to counter the false narrative- that since some people will not be deterred by a border wall, it means the wall is "useless". . ..
    Seems to me there are two questions. One is about a steel wall as a symbol. The other is about its cost effectiveness.

    As you suggest, some sort of steel curtain might slow down some attempting to cross our border. Turns out the Europe still has trenches left over from WWI -- hasn't filled them in just as you're happy to leave your own (wall? fence?) in place. That doesn't mean places like Belgium are now digging more of them to keep the Russians, Muslims, whatever, out:

    trenches.jpg

    Pretty much anyone with actual knowledge of this thinks the steel wall Trump promised Mexico would pay for will be ineffective at keeping out drugs and terrorists. They already come in other ways. Wouldn't even much slow down a slightly determined would-be Hispanic laborer with a cutting torch, rope, or cordless angle grinder or Sawzall. They'd be deterred by not finding so many willing to employ them. Like Trump himself, as one prominent example.

    It's simply not cost-effective in any but the rarest of places -- and likely where we already have barriers. Wasn't even effective for the Chinese centuries ago -- and they didn't have fences, electronic surveillance, drones, listening devices, satellites, etc. as alternatives.

    So, that leaves symbolism. The wall and Trump's rhetoric about rapists, murderers, terrorists, and shit hole countries resonates with some in this country. That's how he started his campaign and he, likely correctly, sees this symbolic anger, fear, and resentment as a key to his support.

    Others see the wall kind of like a giant middle finger to every neighbor to the South. Still others see it as an Iron Curtain, a Berlin wall, a Great Wall of China -- kind of the exact opposite to the symbolism of the Statue of Liberty.

    I suppose we could paint a line between Mexico and the U.S. Maybe even put up signs "Welcome to America the Beautiful." Or, as has been suggested here "Trespassers Will be Shot." Chances are, though, the average two-legged or four-legged coyote wouldn't see much difference between the Mexican landscape behind that line or the U.S. one in front of it. It's when you reach civilization, look for a job, that legal status does and should matter most. And as we've already noted -- it's the drug problem -- mostly of our own making -- that's by far our biggest problem. The wall would have just about zero effect on that. Similarly, most of those here illegally have simply over-stayed their visas. Wall doesn't fix that, either.

    One can argue what symbolism they like -- and the present Trump vs. Congress stand off (of Trump's making) is basically about that. But, it's pretty foolish to pretend that Trump's tweeted "beautiful" and "totally effective" steel slat wall solves any sort of problem -- other than holding on to what's left of his base.

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    It’s a symbol for his ego and base.
    His hill to die one.
    It has the bonus effect of distracting from the investigation and the fact he keeps losing legal battles.

    If the administration were one of his “businesses” he would have already closed it down, declared bankruptcy, screwedhiscontractors and gone on to launder money for someone else.

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    I dont think you can jail a sitting president. But he definitely employes illegals, at his golf courses, hotels, and construction sites. And of course, he employs a lot of temporary work visa holders from abroad as well...

    that may or may not be true...

    Donald Trump companies ignoring E-Verify, hiring illegal immigrants - Washington Times

    interesting:
    Just five of the 565 companies in President Trump’s business empire are signed up to use E-Verify, the government’s best tool to weed illegal immigrants out of the workforce, according to a Washington Times analysis that suggests th

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    On illegals voting. I have never seen that ever. They are most all just hard working people of high morality and character.They are hired by American employers and they do not wish to draw attention to themselves. I have known many and it smears them to say they are voting illegally when you have zero proof. Hey I also know many who were pardoned by Regan and became citizens.

    The illegals will not feel so good if they are yet you can bet they will do thier best to get right. I can respect a person who has remorse and is willing to make things right. There is nothing wrong with having hope and courage. Don’t close the door on the way this country has been traditionally because a good reminder of where we came from is a really healthy reality.

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    We should end this topic on rational grounds.

    As mentioned by peteM, The wall is only symbolic (and the 6 billion price tag is less than two hours of national spending. NOTHING!)

    Words here on the wall topic are a subterfuge for sentiments of controlled vs uncontrolled immigration. Personally, I am still in the "over population problem" generation, and really don't want more "Americans" of any type. The more I interact with people, the more I like my dog.

    or

    It's just political division. Never Trumpers vs Not that Bitch ever! Carried on to the next sensation.

    It would be nice to make the best of the hand we are delt, but it appears that many would rather stomp their feet and yell all sorts of crap to assure that NOTHING good can come of our short time here on earth.

    Grow up, Accept, change, and move forward.

    It's not hard, It's just so few want to be happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    ....
    So, that leaves symbolism. The wall and Trump's rhetoric about rapists, murderers, terrorists, and shit hole countries resonates with some in this country. That's how he started his campaign and he, likely correctly, sees this symbolic anger, fear, and resentment as a key to his support.
    ...
    It is more than symbolism. This was a promise that delivered more than a few votes.
    The clock is now at 2 years. Right at this point the next election begins to become a worry and the game changes.
    Good, bad, win. loose, effective or not, it's the timing.
    Given the shift from the last round, now even if pushed into a corner and has to give up he can now blame other's for the no can do.
    Note that he did not take such a firm position a year ago.
    If you think about it maybe a well played loosing hand. The more noise and ruckus rasied the better.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    It is more than symbolism. This was a promise that delivered more than a few votes.
    The clock is now at 2 years. Right at this point the next election begins to become a worry and the game changes.
    Good, bad, win. loose, effective or not, it's the timing.
    Given the shift from the last round, now even if pushed into a corner and has to give up he can now blame other's for the no can do.
    Note that he did not take such a firm position a year ago.
    If you think about it maybe a well played loosing hand. The more noise and ruckus rasied the better.
    Bob
    Would you have "The Wall"?, or Brexit?
    There seems to be a trend around the world. (Myanmar, Yellow Vests, etc.)

    2 years is nothing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    . . .Words here on the wall topic are a subterfuge for sentiments of controlled vs uncontrolled immigration. Personally, I am still in the "over population problem" generation, and really don't want more "Americans" of any type. . .
    Cal, there are also those of us who want controlled immigration AND think the wall is a bad idea on both rational and symbolic grounds.

    Lots of nations - Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Costa Rica etc. manage to decide who and how many people they want to let in without going out of their way to denigrate others or piss away $5 billion.

    Seems like it was just yesterday that Dr. Evil was blackmailing the world for ONE MILLION DOLLARS.

    $5 billion and Dr. Evil aren't what they used to be -- but still -- it would have bought him off 5000 times over. And in this case, the blackmailer isn't going to end the world (well, one hopes) -- just screw up the lives of millions of US citizens and declare himself the smartest, best, negotiator . . . ever. Trump actually had two years to pass any wall spending bill he wished. That he didn't is a measure of his false sincerity and urgency on this issue. His own hiring of illegals is another.

    Pissing away $5 billion dollars for known foolishness may not be the end of us -- until we give in to it again, and again. There's a reason some nations won't pay ransom as a matter of principle.

    My best guess is that this Mexican standoff will have the House willing to fund border security, but not a wall. Indeed, they've already passed the bi-partisan legislation Trump previously agreed to. Trump wanting his edifice to keep the far right in tow. Trump next exercising some sort of executive power (of the sort Republicans used to hate). And perhaps the now-right-leaning Court calling him on it? We'll get through this -- though with Trump damage on so many other fronts.

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    Peter

    Can you provide a wild ass guess as to the number of illegal crossings we tax payers are processing each year? And how many a "wall" would prevent?

    Exactly, How do those other nations do it? And the US Border can not? EXACTLY?

    I have read that each illegal costs US ( You and I) $82K (Border Patrol don't work for nothing you know.
    I could give two shits about what each "migrant" contributes to the "economy". Kids don't!


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