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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    Egypt is currently Israel's patsy in this problem. Israel would be happy for all the Gazan refugees to go to Egypt, instead of Israel, from where they and their parents were expelled. But Egypt isn't getting any compensation from Israel for this, so it's still going to be Israel's problem.

    Yes, Britain has a lot of responsibility for the whole mess. Most of all, it has responsibility for not preventing the zionists, supported by the US from siezing land that wasn't theirs without the permission of the inhabitants of that land. They managed to control immigration into the Mandated areas of the Palestine up until 1948 and prevent an excess of Jewish immigrants into the area, but after that, there was no control. Most of the problems since then have been caused directly by support of Israel against the locals which has prevented them from being forced to be good neighbours.

    Yes, the Middle East is a problem with multiple sources of the problem. The point from this is that a wall isn't effective unless you are willing to kill and injure thousands of protesters every year to maintain that wall. This isn't neccessary. Illegal immigration to the US from Mexico is currently at its lowest level for decades, there's no need for additional physical measures to control it.

    Building a few more Ford and GM plants in Mexico would have more effect than building a wall...
    Build them south of Chiapas.
    But I don’t think that after the banana republic meddling of the last century there’s enough trust left to pull it off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    Egypt is currently Israel's patsy in this problem. Israel would be happy for all the Gazan refugees to go to Egypt, instead of Israel, from where they and their parents were expelled. But Egypt isn't getting any compensation from Israel for this, so it's still going to be Israel's problem.

    Yes, Britain has a lot of responsibility for the whole mess. Most of all, it has responsibility for not preventing the zionists, supported by the US from siezing land that wasn't theirs without the permission of the inhabitants of that land. They managed to control immigration into the Mandated areas of the Palestine up until 1948 and prevent an excess of Jewish immigrants into the area, but after that, there was no control. Most of the problems since then have been caused directly by support of Israel against the locals which has prevented them from being forced to be good neighbours.

    Yes, the Middle East is a problem with multiple sources of the problem. The point from this is that a wall isn't effective unless you are willing to kill and injure thousands of protesters every year to maintain that wall. This isn't neccessary. Illegal immigration to the US from Mexico is currently at its lowest level for decades, there's no need for additional physical measures to control it.

    Building a few more Ford and GM plants in Mexico would have more effect than building a wall...
    Ford, GM,FCA,and most everyone else are installing as much automation as in the US. Building more auto plants in Mexico really won't help much and the workers that do get hired are not the ones that are wanting to leave and go to the US.

    One thing that is often forgotten is that NAFTA has had negative effects on both sides of the border. When NAFTA passed, much of Mexico's ag industry was decimated. Many of the early immigrant waves were from remote agricultural areas.

    The current wave is coming out of Central America. Mexico does not want them as they cause identical issues as what the US has with them.

    Added to this that there are activists groups that are funding and organizing these caravans in Central America for political reasons and goals. The people that are in the caravans are nothing more than political pawns and appear to be considered expendable by the organizers.

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  4. #163
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    Interesting short UK article on how pelosi, shumer and others are happy to have us taxpayers pay for a wall. Just not on USA border.
    A snippet from article:

    In observing the lofty moral opposition by the Democrats, their media allies and some cheap labor Republicans, to the construction of a wall on America’s southern border, one doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry. They all support, and direct American taxpayer funds to building and maintaining Israeli border walls, while insisting that such walls would be immoral in America.



    Link to article:
    “Jews” only highway opens next to giant Israeli border wall

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Interesting short UK article on how pelosi, shumer and others are happy to have us taxpayers pay for a wall. Just not on USA border. . .l
    Three points, Rob:

    1) All that the US has to do with Israel's various barriers is that we give them foreign aid.

    2) All of Congress appropriates that aid.

    3) Back when Israel built its wall ('99-01), Republicans ran Congress.

    What can be said is the Pelosi and Schumer were among hundreds of Congress and Senate critters who think aid to Israel was a good idea. When Democrats got the Congress back for a bit under Obama, you might also recall they dialed back support for many of Netanyahu's policies.

    I'm thinking we should build the wall out of straws -- seems everyone is reaching for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Three points, Rob:

    1) All that the US has to do with Israel's various barriers is that we give them foreign aid.

    2) All of Congress appropriates that aid.

    3) Back when Israel built its wall ('99-01), Republicans ran Congress.

    What can be said is the Pelosi and Schumer were among hundreds of Congress and Senate critters who think aid to Israel was a good idea. When Democrats got the Congress back for a bit under Obama, you might also recall they dialed back support for many of Netanyahu's policies.

    I'm thinking we should build the wall out of straws -- seems everyone is reaching for them.
    plastic, paper or wheat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    plastic, paper or wheat
    Dang. Probably another debate on that. Oil interests would want them made out of plastic. The Canadians would want to be sure there were no tariffs on them, if of paper. The farm lobby out of wheat. The greens biodegradable, but without pesticides in the supply chain . . . Maybe we get each lobby to sponsor their own hundred miles? Or, do a straw poll??

    Perot might have been prescient about that giant sucking sound . . . just didn't know it would be coming from a border wall . . .

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    Maybe we need the “adopt a wall” program like there is for cleaning up highways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Maybe we need the “adopt a wall” program like there is for cleaning up highways.
    Great Wall has that. The whole thing is actually a reconstruction, it was just a pile of fallen-down rocks which didn't make a good tourist attraction. So every half-mile or so there are bronze wall plaques, "Thanks to the village of Hong Gao for the funds to rebuild this section of wall" and you see tourists having their photos taken in front of it, like they were some historical markers describing the mongol horde

    So I dunno, maybe if they made it out of old logs with pointy tops and stationed guys in cavalry uniforms with muskets walking sentry on it, and you had shows and some native dancing and maybe gambling and some bars, it could pay for itself. Staged attacks by the Messican forces every day at two, withstood by our brave soldjers, lots of smoke and ketchup, that kinda thing. Fire arrows, tourist buses, the whole enchilada ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    So much peace in Israel. The wall is a fantastic success. Missiles can't go over them. Everybody within a thousand miles is ecstatic and singing Kumbaya. Lets hurry and turn the USA into another Israel.
    I know the barriers and walls are valued by them. The bombings and killing in person on the streets by terrorist have declined a lot. They even have checkpoints and they would never buy your points. You should think that over.

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    A lot of people complain because the wall is a waste of money. It could be used on social services, infrastructure or paying down the debt. It’s all BS. It doesn’t matter if it’s $5-50 billion, it’s a drop in the bucket. There are bigger fish to go after.

    1) $50 billion in foreign aide we give yearly. What a joke, we have to borrow money to give away??
    2) The $10billion in cost overruns on the James Webb telescope?
    3)The waste of taxpayers money on the F35?
    4)What about ULA building a rocket system that’s already obsolete, late and billions over budget?
    5)The billions on defense...who the hell are we protecting our self from?
    6) Unemployment benefits for people that earn over a million/yr?
    7)The Fed’s spending $1.7billion/yr on empty or underused office space?
    8) all the cost plus contracts they give that cost taxpayers 100’s of billions more/yr.
    9) the list goes on and on.

    I’m all for border security, If the wall is what we need, so be it. We take in over a million immigrants every year. No other country in the world has taken more. You cannot put illegals before people trying to do it the right way, there has to be a penalty. Duel citizenship is probably one of the worst things we have and English not being our national language is at the top too. The United States of America is for Americans, not “______”-American. If they check out, give them a SS#, no special treatment or benefits and put them to work.

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    In 2006 the Congress passed the Secure Fences Act that funded about 650 miles of border fencing. IIRC it was about $35 Billion for the fencing portion.

    It had broad bipartisan support in the Senate. Obama, Clinton, Biden, Schumer, Feinstein all voted in favor.

    I know of at least 2 different occasions when Janet Napolitano touted the success of the wall, citing decreases in illegal crossings of 75%-90% in El Paso, Yuma, Tuscon, and San Diego.

    The previous administration made these reductions in illegal crossings a talking point on numerous occasions.

    The barriers worked as expected, but one of the effects is what we are dealing with today- that is, the migration routes have changed. The easy ways are blocked, and migrants now go through the drug cartels that control the more difficult routes. $3K for Mexicans, $6-$7K for Central Americans is what they have to pay. We all know what these people are subjected to on their journey.

    This was an unintended consequence, and I think it illustrates why additional barrier are needed. The alternative would be to tear down the existing fencing and re-open the easy routes- which, without solving the problem, would at least take away some income from human traffickers.

    Not a good solution, imo. We need to know who is coming in across the southern border- the interview with the CBP official the other day, he said they apprehended 133 persons the previous day that were from countries other than Mexico or Central America. That was one sector in Texas, on one day. They estimate that they catch somewhere between 10% and 25% of the people who try to cross illegally.

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    Did Democrats Once Support Border Wall? - FactCheck.org

    Trump during the campaign called for a 30-foot tall concrete wall for the length of the border. But the Secure Fence Act was “a bipartisan plan to strategically place clear-view, secure fencing that works hand in glove with surveillance technology. Democrats and Republicans have supported such policies in the 2006 Secure Fence Act and the 2013 bipartisan immigration reform law,” Schumer’s spokesman said.

    “The contexts, I think, were different,” Michelle Mittelstadt, director of communications at the Migration Policy Institute, told us via email. “Today’s discussion involves fencing off the entire 2,000-mile border while the earlier debate focused on adding significant (700 miles) but still limited miles of fencing at locations designated by DHS as necessary.”

    The flow of illegal immigration has also changed dramatically since 2006, Mittelstadt said. When the Secure Fence Act was being debated in 2006, it was a time of surging illegal immigration. The peak in the unauthorized population was reached in 2007, Mittelstadt said, when it was estimated at 12.2 million people – a number that has since declined by more than 1 million. Total apprehensions of illegal immigrants along the southern border are also down, from just over a million in fiscal year 2006 to about 400,000 in 2016, according to U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

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    ^^^ That piece supports what I just wrote.

    In 2006, dems supported additional border security that included additional fencing.

    After the fending was completed, illegal crossings went way down in those sectors. (fences do work)

    Trump is asking for a very modest $1.6 Billion to continue that work. Today's discussion does NOT involve fencing the entire 2000 miles of border, so that cannot be the excuse to oppose.

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    No it it doesn't

    they voted for fencing determined to be required

    not a big beautiful concrete abomination

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    ^^^ That piece supports what I just wrote.

    In 2006, dems supported additional border security that included additional fencing.

    After the fending was completed, illegal crossings went way down in those sectors. (fences do work)

    Trump is asking for a very modest $1.6 Billion to continue that work. Today's discussion does NOT involve fencing the entire 2000 miles of border, so that cannot be the excuse to oppose.


    Are you dense or mad?
    The Dems offered 1.6 billion and trump refused


    He wants 5.7 billion

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Are you dense or mad?
    The Dems offered 1.6 billion and trump refused


    He wants 5.7 billion
    The piece you linked was 2 years old.

    He seems to have backed off on the $5.7 Bn. ($4.2 Bn of that was to expand detention capacity)

    The dem offer excluded using any of the funds for a fence...

    The best hope was probably the Collins bill, but as you noted it did not get the 60 votes needed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    The piece you linked was 2 years old.

    He seems to have backed off on the $5.7 Bn. ($4.2 Bn of that was to expand detention capacity)

    The dem offer excluded using any of the funds for a fence...

    The best hope was probably the Collins bill, but as you noted it did not get the 60 votes needed...
    cause the story you were peddling was 12 years old?

    how has he backed off one dollar?

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    I am pretty sure on quick search detention money is on top of 5.7 for the wall, not out of it, and not sure of amount

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    After the fending was completed, illegal crossings went way down in those sectors. (fences do work)
    Beg to differ but your own example shows they don't work. Not if stopping illegal immigration is the goal, anyhow. 'Moving the routes' is not an unintended consequence, it's a predictable consequence. That's all those fences acomplished.

    When you drop a rock in the middle of a river, it doesn't stop the water. The water just goes around.

    What works, and I know it works because I've seen it work, is to stop people who are illegal from working. You can also easily stop them from staying in a motel, driving a car, taking an airplane or train or bus, buying anything over a hundred dollars - in general, living. A small percentage will suffer through but the large part of the problem will be eliminated.

    We already have all the tools in place to do that.

    What is not in place is the agreement that this needs to be done. So all that a wall will do is divert people elsewhere. As soon as they get past the border poof ! they are home free with states and cities defying the federal government. Every time INS actually does anything the world is flooded with sobsister crap "oooh the poor 'undocumented worker' his children are crying and the vegetables are rotting !"

    The wall has then acomplished nothing - except created an opportunity for a criminal underground to develop, like Prohibition did. It's not an answer.

    The answer has to be, the people of the US have to decide what they want to do. Right now the biggest mouths are also the biggest violators (e.g. Meg Whitman and yes, the Donald). On the same-but-other side, the sob-sisters. But that shit's not going to cut it. Lip service to controlling immigration doesn't do shit, because fully half the people of the US have no intention to abide by it. The real problem is the US has schizophrenia.

    The wall is tits on a boar.

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    1) he's not getting $6 billion for his piece of shit. Elections have consequences.

    2) it's not an emergency.

    3) if it were an emergency he would have done this when he controlled the senate and the house.

    4) he didn't.

    5) arguments about a $6 billion piece of shit are simply designed to distract from the fact he's got his nose
    buried in putin's asshole.

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