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  1. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    my position is a position of fact. I have said numerous time, you haven't read or chose to ignore, that that is not commentary on how difficult it is. But the clear fact is its choice that resulted in the first dose, then the second and so on. Saying by the 1000 dose their brain chemistry so fucked up that its not their choice is just stupid. It was their free choice to put themselves in that state.
    Have you ever dealt with addiction or had anyone close to you go through it? It's just not as black and white as you make it out to be for everyone. It's extremely easy to take that position of opinion when it comes to addiction until you see or experience the consequences of it.

    I've had a close loved one go through it. It was absolutely terrifying and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I know when we see TV shows or news stories about addiction we think to ourselves "OMG Just shut that person out of your life..." It's just not that simple.

    Before I had someone very close to me go through it, I'd have probably felt the same way and my mind probably couldn't have been changed. The fact is, people should be held accountable for their actions, but human behavior and the chemistry and psychology of the human brain isn't just as cut and dry as we'd all like it to be. Certain things change how we react in situations.

    Just an example, but look at women in abusive relationships. Do you think for a single second that anyone of them in that situation don't actually want to get up and leave the person hurting them? It goes beyond just being afraid. Their brain is rewired after being in that situation for so long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    You're position of 'hey its not your fault" is an enabler. It bloody well is your fault. Think! Do you want to send the message to kids/society that become an addic isn't a choice, that "its not the addicts fault", its just some thing that sort of happens? wtf kind of enabling message does that send? Society needs the message instead this is really really bad way to be, and its your choice and only your choice if you want to end up like that

    One of the problems with this soft western world is this notion some want to push to the masses that a complete lack responsibility for oneself is ok. Its not. It encourage people that it is ok to be the worst they can be rather than strive to be the best. I support someone who needs help wanting and getting it, this isn't anti help....its anti soggy your-not-responsible-for-yourself BS
    I don't think there are any addiction recovery programs out there that simply tell people it's not their fault and lead them to believe they're the only victim in the process... Many programs require people to sincerely apologize face to face to anyone they've wronged during their time of addiction.

    The fact is, I've never met an aware addict who didn't want to get off whatever they were addicted to. It doesn't just come down a yes or no decision to people like that. It goes far deeper than many of us can understand unless we've experienced it.

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  3. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCMotors View Post
    Have you ever dealt with addiction or had anyone close to you go through it? It's just not as black and white as you make it out to be for everyone. It's extremely easy to take that position of opinion when it comes to addiction until you see or experience the consequences of it.

    I've had a close loved one go through it. It was absolutely terrifying and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I know when we see TV shows or news stories about addiction we think to ourselves "OMG Just shut that person out of your life..." It's just not that simple.

    Before I had someone very close to me go through it, I'd have probably felt the same way and my mind probably couldn't have been changed. The fact is, people should be held accountable for their actions, but human behavior and the chemistry and psychology of the human brain isn't just as cut and dry as we'd all like it to be. Certain things change how we react in situations.

    Just an example, but look at women in abusive relationships. Do you think for a single second that anyone of them in that situation don't actually want to get up and leave the person hurting them? It goes beyond just being afraid. Their brain is rewired after being in that situation for so long.

    .

    I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying.. That its black and white that it is a personal choice is more a statement of fact than judgement. In the same breath I've also repetitively said that's not commentary on how difficult it is to stop nor am I opposed to treatment/help for them. Not sure the abused woman is comparable though, its not her choice to be assaulted. The apoligist will argue its not the addicts either, but it was the first time, maybe the second etc - they got there by choices they made.

    I believe we as a society would be far better off with an emphasis on self responsibility. In the same fashion we teach our kids not to cross without looking both ways, we should teach them "make this choice and this can happen to you", because it is a choice of free will to end up like that. We'd be better off with a culture more expecting ownership and responsibility for choices and actions than we current have. imo the well meaning apologist contribute to problem of addiction with the "its not your fault" crap.

    The better understanding people have of the outcomes of a choice, and know they have responsibility for the choice, i think will lead to better decisions and less addicts.

    I don't think there are any addiction recovery programs out there that simply tell people it's not their fault and lead them to believe they're the only victim in the process... Many programs require people to sincerely apologize face to face to anyone they've wronged during their time of addiction.
    I wish the apologists and excuse makers knew this.

  4. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I'm of the opinion that you're trying to create a false equivalence but whatever.

    Personally I can't see the problem but then I live in a country where *most* firearms are readily available but you need a licence and a permit/registration for each firearm you possess, so who cares. I really doubt the local law officials would go for this and first you'd have to fight it past the courts anyway.

    As for the 'sanctuary city' thing I don't care about that either. When I lived in Tucson nearly 20 years back the Hispanic immigrants whether legal or not seem to be doing all the dirty low-paid jobs anyway and good luck to them too. If I'd been born in Mexico I'd be thinking about doing a little border crossing myself.

    Yes, a country has the right to protect its borders and decide who comes in (or stays out). But if you haven't the ability or will to enforce it - shrug. Can't blame a person for trying. Fortunately we have sea borders which makes control somewhat easier.

    PDW
    Actually the fallacy would be slippery slope.
    As in...
    Are you Really Sure you want the locals enforcing federal regulations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Liberals do not believe in personal responsibility, it is always someone else's fault or an inanimate object's fault. As soon as you understand where they are coming from the less time you will spend trying to inject them with common sense.
    Wow. Now I know everything wrong is the Liberals fault. Glad I'm not one and nice to have a place to point the finger.

    tf.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Contrary to what some claim a large percentage of drugs coming across the southwestern border are NOT coming through the official checkpoints but through unsecured and lightly secured areas.

    again, quoting the voices in your head

    this is a lie, the facts to the contrary have bee provided previously, your refusal to accept them is just trumpista BS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Wow. Now I know everything wrong is the Liberals fault. Glad I'm not one and nice to have a place to point the finger.

    tf.jpg
    Will you admit you are a liberal or are you still in denial? You claim you are not, but everything that comes out of your mouth is extreme left. What are you other than extremely irritating? Funny how I get ripped on here when I preach personal responsibility, if that isn't sad I don't know what is. I thought it was strange to have so many left wingers on a machinist board, I am pretty sure that isn't the case, I was wrong. The left is just more loud and obnoxious than the right, so 10 of them make more noise than 100 of their counterparts.

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  9. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Will you admit you are a liberal or are you still in denial? You claim you are not, but everything that comes out of your mouth is extreme left. What are you other than extremely irritating? Funny how I get ripped on here when I preach personal responsibility, if that isn't sad I don't know what is. I thought it was strange to have so many left wingers on a machinist board, I am pretty sure that isn't the case, I was wrong. The left is just more loud and obnoxious than the right, so 10 of them make more noise than 100 of their counterparts.
    No...you get ripped for preaching in general.
    See...your ideology doesn't help solv the problem.
    Any more than thoughts and prayers help the murdered children and their families...and the victims of the next massacre.


    You are surprised that people are left of your hard right position?
    Go back to storm front where you are comfortable.
    Remember trump lost the vote, booth houses republicans lost seats.
    You are NOT in som vast majority.
    You are in a fringe position, held and protected by a very narrow loud group.
    Hard evangelicals, snake kissers, ammosexuals, and tea party hobbits.

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  11. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Will you admit you are a liberal or are you still in denial? You claim you are not, but everything that comes out of your mouth is extreme left. What are you other than extremely irritating?
    Miguel is extreme left, Gordon is a teletubby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Will you admit you are a liberal or are you still in denial? You claim you are not, but everything that comes out of your mouth is extreme left.
    Sad that most Americans have little understanding of the world political spectrum. Conservatives seem to understand it even less.

    Believe it or not, Gordon is probably considered fairly moderate in his neck of the woods. The American Democratic Party, right of center.

    Things are a bit different outside of your little bubble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Miguel is extreme left, Gordon is a teletubby.
    In actuality I'm a libertarian...in the original use of the word.

    I run entirely on positions, it just happens that reality has a known liberal bias.

    I KNOW people on the extreme left...I ain't them.

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    Its logical if we are to allow anyone then we should lay off all the border patrol and put up a big Welcome sign...

    Yes likely we would still need a passport to go to Canada and Mexico and most any other country..they sill wish to protect their border..

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    Quote Originally Posted by bucktruck View Post
    Sad that most Americans have little understanding of the world political spectrum. Conservatives seem to understand it even less.

    Believe it or not, Gordon is probably considered fairly moderate in his neck of the woods. The American Democratic Party, right of center.

    Things are a bit different outside of your little bubble.
    Even better, Reagan would never be nominated as a republican these days.
    Hell Nixon was a republican and signed some of the most important domestic programs of all time.

    Things are even different here than in their little bubble.

    The right in this nation has a delusion that some how the democrats are socialists.
    Nut jobs like laPiere at CPAC said so...and these nuts believe it.

    Consider guns...yes, there has been a wave of gun legislation nation wide, almost exclusively to loosen restrictions, yet they won't believe it. In their bubble Obama is coming for yur gunz.

    The messicans are sending Ben Ladins boys over to make them get gay marriages.

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  18. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Will you admit you are a liberal or are you still in denial? You claim you are not, but everything that comes out of your mouth is extreme left. What are you other than extremely irritating? Funny how I get ripped on here when I preach personal responsibility, if that isn't sad I don't know what is. I thought it was strange to have so many left wingers on a machinist board, I am pretty sure that isn't the case, I was wrong. The left is just more loud and obnoxious than the right, so 10 of them make more noise than 100 of their counterparts.
    bucktruck just about nailed it when he wrote, "Sad that most Americans have little understanding of the world political spectrum. Conservatives seem to understand it even less.

    Believe it or not, Gordon is probably considered fairly moderate in his neck of the woods. The American Democratic Party, right of center.

    Things are a bit different outside of your little bubble."


    By European standards I'm not ever "fairly moderate" - I'm right wing. What you fail to get though is that with some things I'm "left" but "right" in others.

    I'v noticed in PM that several seem to love putting everyone in boxes. I just don't fit in a box.

    What I also find is that in the USA the more right wing someone is the less tolerant they are to the opinion of others. In a truly free democratic country all opinions should be valid. I wonder if you know what "free speech" really means?

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Yes likely we would still need a passport to go to Canada and Mexico and most any other country..they sill wish to protect their border..
    I theory there is free movement within the EU countries but not a good idea to "forget" your passport.

    Try flying to any country without a passport

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    bucktruck just about nailed it when he wrote, "Sad that most Americans have little understanding of the world political spectrum. Conservatives seem to understand it even less.

    Believe it or not, Gordon is probably considered fairly moderate in his neck of the woods. The American Democratic Party, right of center.

    Things are a bit different outside of your little bubble."


    By European standards I'm not ever "fairly moderate" - I'm right wing. What you fail to get though is that with some things I'm "left" but "right" in others.

    I'v noticed in PM that several seem to love putting everyone in boxes. I just don't fit in a box.

    What I also find is that in the USA the more right wing someone is the less tolerant they are to the opinion of others. In a truly free democratic country all opinions should be valid. I wonder if you know what "free speech" really means?
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
    Isaac Asimov, Column in Newsweek (21 January 1980)

    Anti-intellectualism - Wikiquote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    In actuality I'm a libertarian...in the original use of the word.

    I run entirely on positions, it just happens that reality has a known liberal bias.

    I KNOW people on the extreme left...I ain't them.
    BULLSHIT! In another thread you suggested killing the children of "anti-vaxxers" as some kind of collective punishment. Hardly a libertarian position.

    You're a progressive, of the hard-core collectivist type and in post after post your groupthink ideology comes through. For you everything comes down to groups and you would hold every "member" responsible for the actions of individuals you consider to be members of the same group.

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    Deleted - duplicate post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    BULLSHIT! In another thread you suggested killing the children of "anti-vaxxers" as some kind of collective punishment. Hardly a libertarian position.

    You're a progressive, of the hard-core collectivist type and in post after post your groupthink ideology comes through. For you everything comes down to groups and you would hold every "member" responsible for the actions of individuals you consider to be members of the same group.
    Sure it's a libertarian position, if I do it myself.
    Besides, it's not punishment, it preserves herd immunity.
    Again, it's about what works, not ideology.
    What is it with you folks and the obsession with punishment.

    You on the other hand simply refuse to even consider that there is more going on than at the purely individual level.

    Except for brown people...you'll gladly lump them together.

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  28. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    In actuality I'm a libertarian.
    .
    hehehehehehehhehehehehehehe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    hehehehehehehhehehehehehehe
    Look at the original usage.
    And remember, there are more threats to liberty than government.


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