Huaweis Ban and the reprocustions - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Dunno (with respect to our treatment of Manning, Snowden, Assange . . .). In the recent round, China killed those spilling its secrets, while the US gave one a sex change operation and shortened his/her jail sentence. No one has assassinated Snowden. Assange is subject to rule of law.

    There is a difference in how open the countries are and their willingness to hear uncomfortable truths.

    Do understand the views of Mark Rand and others who know feel the US doesn't seem to look out for the best interests of its European allies in recent years. Perhaps the next election here will reverse some of that. I'd also add that we seem a bit too happy to turn a blind eye to the actions of "friends" like the Saudis.

    I'm OK with the relatively light sentence of Manning -- rather we err on the side of transparency than despotism. I think it was both a mistake and a shame that Snowden didn't feel he had a clear path to tell his story here. Assange, however, strikes me as a self-important ass.

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    Regardless of what they have programmed into their phones, this is why Huaweis has been blacklisted from multiple countries technology sectors Diamond glass, lasers, the FBI, Huawei, and burgers - finally, a smartphone story with everything

    They have been caught on numerous occasions in numerous countries blatantly stealing technology, much of it having military applications. The ARE working as an espionage arm of the Chinese government, that is not debatable. It's just gotten to the point that they are getting too effective at it, and becoming a real threat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    To understand why Huawei has gotten as big as they have and why they are a security threat as well one must understand how they do business. They are basically a state owned (chinese government) entity. They win business deals because the chinese government or state run banking agencies provide financial backing of their deals.
    But you guys love Japan - your shops are FULL of Jap stuff - and they do exactly the same thing. Why is it okay for the Japs but China is bad for doing the same thing ?

    And why is the US so fucking stupid that we don't have an industrial policy ? Even after watching 12 million people lose their jobs and most manufacturing leave the country ? A few tariffs is going to fix this ? Sure ....

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Xerox for all practical purposes gave it to Apple. One of the big management mistakes in computer history but it was a money losing operation so upper level mangers did not care.
    Apple (Steve) and Microsoft (Bill) certainly wrangled over it and one should remember Apple's pirate flag.
    A interesting time full of what might be consider "tricky" moves and maybe what we would now call IP theft.
    Back then the protection of such was not what is is now.
    Agreed; I probably shouldn't have used the word 'theft' but that's how software IP has gotten weaponised. Back then you couldn't patent ideas in software (mostly) but you could copyright the code. Then we had the 'look and feel' wars and clean room builds to get around copyright. Then software patents that are mostly bullshit so nobody could do clean room builds any more.

    So Apple basically took the PARC work and implemented it in that twee little box. Then Microsoft did Windoze. All the while the unix guys were doing X windows and various L&F interfaces on top.

    It's only old farts like me, you, Mark and a small handful of others here who've lived through this from a hands-on POV. Wonderful time to be in computing IMO.

    As for banning Huawei, I agree with what my Govt has done there and I also agree with Mark - the competitors need to both up their game and build gear to the same or better price point, or they're going to keep losing market share to everywhere that doesn't really care about possible embedded systems espionage.

    And Manny, sorry, don't care what you say on this one and I've no intention of going down rabbit holes only to find you saying 'that doesn't count because it's all imaginary anyway'. Got better things to do, I'm off traveling in a bit over a week from now. My clients are expecting me....

    PDW

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  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfalke View Post
    Regardless of what they have programmed into their phones, this is why Huaweis has been blacklisted from multiple countries technology sectors Diamond glass, lasers, the FBI, Huawei, and burgers - finally, a smartphone story with everything

    They have been caught on numerous occasions in numerous countries blatantly stealing technology, much of it having military applications. The ARE working as an espionage arm of the Chinese government, that is not debatable. It's just gotten to the point that they are getting too effective at it, and becoming a real threat.
    So AKHAN glass sends Huawei a sample of its new, tougher, mobile phone glass to evaluate. Huawei evaluate it back at HQ and sent it back in pieces, with a bit missing. Sorry, this isn't IP theft, it's not spying. If it was a breach of ITAR regulations, the firm at fault was AKHAN.

    If Seco or similar sent you a box of carbide inserts to evaluate, would they have any cause for complaint if you sent them back with the edges worn?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post

    I worked a program called the GM-10 which got totally scrapped as Ford came out with the exact same car 6 months before we were scheduled to start production.
    I wonder how that happened.
    Bob
    Cat challenger rubber tracked farm tractors, and then John Deere's exact copy.

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    [QUOTE=CarbideBob;3360471
    One can not say US companies have not and do not do the same as China.

    I worked a program called the GM-10 which got totally scrapped as Ford came out with the exact same car 6 months before we were scheduled to start production.
    I wonder how that happened.
    Bob[/QUOTE]

    ”One can not say US companies have not and do not do the same as China.”

    If this happens then it is wrong. Bob regarding your experience with GM 10 I have not been able to find a link to see a example of what happened. You did say/ ask “I wonder what happened”./?

    I would not mind finding out what you mention.Sorry it was a negative experience.

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    Huawei in the news and claims a employee stole tech from the company. It is in court now so eventually the details will be known.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-trade-secrets


    It it would be proper if stolen tech and IP would be subject to existing legal protections.

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    The huawei case is twofold.

    First, the us government thinks it cannot force huawei to make or give them backdoors to access other countries data.
    This is probably true.
    Unlike microsoft, cisco, juniper and every us telco gear maker who is obliged to hand nsa+others(who?) backdoor access.

    Secondary, huawei makes better and cheaper stuff than anyone else, today.
    If huawei gets to sell and deploy major core network gear in most oecd countries, 2 things will happen.

    1.
    US makers of telecoms gear become irrelevant, unless they can significantly outperform huawei.
    This is highly unlikely. US markets won´t support realistic pricing of telecoms gear, since costs / revenues drop 80% vs current deals.
    SP collapses.
    2.
    US cannot control the core nw gear and cannot routinely spy on core routers, globally, only on sniffed traffic.
    Sniffed traffic is ever harder to crack due to ever better sw encryption.

    I have no idea what will happen.
    Historically, the better tech always wins.
    Huawei is the better tech.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Unlike microsoft, cisco, juniper and every us telco gear maker who is obliged to hand nsa+others(who?) backdoor access.
    "5 eyes" maybe ?

  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    The huawei case is twofold.

    First, the us government thinks it cannot force huawei to make or give them backdoors to access other countries data.
    This is probably true.
    Unlike microsoft, cisco, juniper and every us telco gear maker who is obliged to hand nsa+others(who?) backdoor access.

    Secondary, huawei makes better and cheaper stuff than anyone else, today.
    If huawei gets to sell and deploy major core network gear in most oecd countries, 2 things will happen.

    1.
    US makers of telecoms gear become irrelevant, unless they can significantly outperform huawei.
    This is highly unlikely. US markets won´t support realistic pricing of telecoms gear, since costs / revenues drop 80% vs current deals.
    SP collapses.
    2.
    US cannot control the core nw gear and cannot routinely spy on core routers, globally, only on sniffed traffic.
    Sniffed traffic is ever harder to crack due to ever better sw encryption.

    I have no idea what will happen.
    Historically, the better tech always wins.
    Huawei is the better tech.
    There is also the issue that Huawei will be able to monitor (spy on) the network but the US and allies won't be able to.

    This is a dramatic shift in strategic advantage and the West will be fools if we go down this path.

    Nothing against China being smart and playing the long game but that is the real problem, the West is playing the short game and handing over the keys to China to win the long game without even having to work for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    This is mostly about political differences and polarization. The whole video is politics and the relevant to the OT is almost non existent and so to get a morsel of relevant info is immersed in a mess of irrelevant politics. Not a positive contribution.

    I posted the time to watch the relevant part of the video related to this thread. Two minutes from 5:00 to 7:00. No sugestion was made by me to watch anything else in relation to this thread. He made a good point that nobody in this thread has brought up. The USA is using its power as a global bully to hamper sales of another countries superior technology for the benefit of american corporations. There is nothing new or shocking about this except the "news media" or should I say propaganda arm of our gov. is 100% behind the .gov story, in the past before all the media was consolidated into a few companies the actual truth had a chance to come out.

    Hanermo lives outside the USA so I trust he would have reasonable opinion on huawai tech and according to him: "huawei makes better and cheaper stuff than anyone else, today."

    Spinit, I suggest you read the short book, more of a pamphlet really, by Smedley Butler: War is a Racket.
    A little about him so you dont discount him as a tweed jacket/elbow patch wearing liberal humanities profesor who hates republicans in texas:

    A quote from his booklet:
    I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was just part of the racket all the time. Now I am sure of it.

    At the time of his death, Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, was the most decorated Marine in US history; he was the only person to be awarded a Marine Corps Brevet Medal and a Medal of Honor for two separate military actions. He had also become an unrelenting voice against the business of war.
    Received 16 military medals, 5 for valor. Is one of 19 men to receive the Medal of Honor twice.
    Wrote the 1935 exposé that linked business and the military titled "War Is A Racket."
    Ran for Senate as a Republican in 1932.

    more here: Major General Smedley Butler | Americans Who Tell The Truth

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  17. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I posted the time to watch the relevant part of the video related to this thread. He made a good point that nobody in this thread has brought up. The USA is using its power as a global bully to hamper sales of another countries superior technology for the benefit of american corporations. There is nothing new or shocking about this except the "news media" or should I say propaganda arm of our gov. is 100% behind the .gov story, in the past before all the media was consolidated into a few companies the actual truth had a chance to come out.

    Hanermo lives outside the USA so I trust he would have reasonable opinion on huawai tech and according to him: "huawei makes better and cheaper stuff than anyone else, today."

    Spinit, I suggest you read the short book, more of a pamphlet really, by Smedley Butler: War is a Racket.
    A little about him so you dont discount him as a tweed jacket/elbow patch wearing liberal humanities profesor who hates republicans in texas:

    A quote from his booklet:
    I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was just part of the racket all the time. Now I am sure of it.

    At the time of his death, Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, was the most decorated Marine in US history; he was the only person to be awarded a Marine Corps Brevet Medal and a Medal of Honor for two separate military actions. He had also become an unrelenting voice against the business of war.
    Received 16 military medals, 5 for valor. Is one of 19 men to receive the Medal of Honor twice.
    Wrote the 1935 exposé that linked business and the military titled "War Is A Racket."
    Ran for Senate as a Republican in 1932.

    more here: Major General Smedley Butler | Americans Who Tell The Truth
    No thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    No thanks.
    I am kind of surprised that you seem to be blindly believing the liberal medias story. When a republican war hero, one of the most decorated ever, can give a little insight as to what is really happening, insight he gained through direct involvement, you poo poo it away?
    If the obama administration was doing this would you take the same line?

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    With all due respect to Major General Smedley Darlington Butler,
    who ran for Senate as a Republican in 1932.
    Things have changed a bit in 87 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I am kind of surprised that you seem to be blindly believing the liberal medias story. When a republican war hero, one of the most decorated ever, can give a little insight as to what is really happening, insight he gained through direct involvement, you poo poo it away?
    If the obama administration was doing this would you take the same line?
    The point has already been made. I deleted both your link and my quote of the link. The fact you now bring up further politics tells me your video is a waste of time.

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    You are doing it again. Please refrain from rewriting the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifixcnc View Post
    With all due respect to Major General Smedley Darlington Butler,
    who ran for Senate as a Republican in 1932.
    Things have changed a bit in 87 years.
    If we put this in the historical context of the time period, I understand what the general was referring to. It should be noted that much of the industrial world was running done the fascist road at the time, including the US.

    Much of this was the result of the initial issues that lead to WW1 which was basically a family squabble since all of the monarchies were related.

    It would be very wise for us to understand and remember the mistakes of WW1 and the time period after as many of the worlds problems that we have today are rooted in poor solutions from this time period.

    It should also be remembered that many major US businesses were clamoring to do business with the likes of Lenin and Hitler early on. How did Henry Ford's truck plant project turn out? Built it, got it running, and we do not need you any more so good bye.

    US businesses tend to view most things from a very short view as in monthly or quarterly profit statements. This results in us transferring a lot of technology to future competitors just for the sake of making the sale. Not our competitors fault, only ours for being stupid.

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  26. #59
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    Spinit strikes again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    The point has already been made. I deleted both your link and my quote of the link. The fact you now bring up further politics tells me your video is a waste of time.
    The video opened a NEW point, which I brought up. I have been following this from post 1 but may have missed the point you say was already made, can you give me a post # to find it?
    Did you just admit to deleting a video that had 2 min of info relevant to this thread without even watching it? That is how I read it. Please restore my post.

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