OT- Yahoo:Desperate need for machinists....Oh really??

Oh brother....Intrigued by the headline and machine picture, I read this article on Yahoo:

7-jobs-companies-are-desperate-to-fill: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

So according to this, there is a desperate need for machinists?

Good news though...You need little education to be one!
What you don't know will be provided for you as on the job training.

Pay starts at $39k and grows!

Sorry, this is just the dumbest thing I have read/heard in a long time...what a bunch of Morons.

I want to know where a trainee can start at just shy of $20.00/hr. I think the woman who wrote that article didn't research it very well, but she did further the cause of helping free up funding for machinist programs at schools. Oh, wait- no education neccessary, right?

LOL... I like the opening line about how "few people grow up wanting to be a machinist."

Uh, I grew up wanting to be a machinist and/or gunmaker.

I give up--in order to save folks the disappointment they seem to endure when I tell them I'm a machinist, I'm going to start telling people I'm a drug dealer.

At least most people know what a drug dealer does...

Kid,

WHY did you grow up wanting to be a machinist? How old are you? if you are in the later 40's, of course you did. You didn't have to even BE a machinist. You could get a good job in any factory for decent wages as an operator, and I don't mean what is an operator, today.

Today, they push buttons, AFTER somebody with training sets up the machine. That is not to say that ALL CNC operators are button pushers, but many are. Deny that as you will. YOU may declare that you program, load, offset, etc.. That is you in your little shop. Put you in a shop with a 100 or more machines, you do NOT do your own programming. Offsets, OK, but the program comes down from on high.

I have no problem with actual numerical machinists, if you do your own work. If all you do is follow what is delivered from the engineering dept., the machine does all the work and all you do is load and unload, you ain't a machinist. Machine OPerator is too good a name for you. "Material handler" sounds better. Shove stock in on one side, shovel out finished pieces on the other.

Cheers,

George

Huh?

gmatov said:

Kid,

WHY did you grow up wanting to be a machinist? How old are you? if you are in the later 40's, of course you did. You didn't have to even BE a machinist. You could get a good job in any factory for decent wages as an operator, and I don't mean what is an operator, today.

Today, they push buttons, AFTER somebody with training sets up the machine. That is not to say that ALL CNC operators are button pushers, but many are. Deny that as you will. YOU may declare that you program, load, offset, etc.. That is you in your little shop. Put you in a shop with a 100 or more machines, you do NOT do your own programming. Offsets, OK, but the program comes down from on high.

I have no problem with actual numerical machinists, if you do your own work. If all you do is follow what is delivered from the engineering dept., the machine does all the work and all you do is load and unload, you ain't a machinist. Machine OPerator is too good a name for you. "Material handler" sounds better. Shove stock in on one side, shovel out finished pieces on the other.

Cheers,

George

Click to expand...

George,

I'm honestly not quite sure where you were going with your post, but it seems a bit condescending to me. If you could clarify a bit, maybe we could both appreciate a different perspective.

A little background on me and my current situation:

I'll turn 26 in a few days and was drawn to a career in machining because I get intense satisfaction from building precision parts whether they're for a tricycle or NASA.

I currently work in a shop mainly involved in prototyping but also do some production work as well.

Am I inexperienced? Of course--I'm still wet behind the ears when it comes to this game and I have much to learn. But I do feel like I have a lot of responsibility above and beyond the average "CNC Operator."

In my current job, I'm responsible for bringing new jobs in the door, quoting jobs, dealing directly with customers, sourcing/ordering all tooling and materials, managing tooling inventory, and scheduling work.

On the technical side, I'm generally given a print and told "make this." The engineers in our company do not write CNC programs, and they certainly don't tell me how to make a part or assembly. I'm left to program as I see fit or use conventional machines. Once I've decided on a process, I'm responsible for my own workholding and cutting tools. If I need to build fixturing, I do it. If I need to order cutters, I do it. I determine inspection methods--you get the idea... Basically, if it needs to be done in the machine shop, I'm responsible for figuring it out or finding someone who can help me figure it out.

Does this make me a "machinist"? No! But I'm working on it, and I ain't a button pusher.

Boy who are they tring to kid? I know several CPAs that are currently out of work, and would love to know where those jobs are as they have been looking for some time and taking work where they can for minimum wage in some cases. Software Engineer, my youngest brother is in that field. Most of those he knows that have been hired have been from India and Indonesia at less than half the wage figure stated there. In fact he is currently getting ready to go to Singapore as half of his firms clients are based there. He thinks that this will be the begining of the end to most of the work being done here by his firm. As for the healthcare industry, well I get to interface with those folks and the full time jobs are going by the wayside. Health aids 24 hrs max at min. wage, RNs and LPNs 2-3 full time and maybe 2-4 part-time each shift. With the closing of a few hospitals here in the Philly area the rest can pick and choose as there is a glut of staff in the area. My daughter is in the field on the insurance end working with nursing homes. and is going back to school for a tech degree in patient care only to aid in her current job so as to keep her name on the bosses radar as a go getter for promotion. The ad description for Machinist sounds alot like the ones I see at times for firefighters and when you can the 1-800 number you get a recording pitching the great benifits of joining the U.S. Navy

gmatov said:

Kid,

WHY did you grow up wanting to be a machinist? How old are you? if you are in the later 40's, of course you did. You didn't have to even BE a machinist. You could get a good job in any factory for decent wages as an operator, and I don't mean what is an operator, today.

Today, they push buttons, AFTER somebody with training sets up the machine. That is not to say that ALL CNC operators are button pushers, but many are. Deny that as you will. YOU may declare that you program, load, offset, etc.. That is you in your little shop. Put you in a shop with a 100 or more machines, you do NOT do your own programming. Offsets, OK, but the program comes down from on high.

I have no problem with actual numerical machinists, if you do your own work. If all you do is follow what is delivered from the engineering dept., the machine does all the work and all you do is load and unload, you ain't a machinist. Machine OPerator is too good a name for you. "Material handler" sounds better. Shove stock in on one side, shovel out finished pieces on the other.

Cheers,

George

Click to expand...

ffs dont try and start an internet fight will ya.

most of us CNC people posting here can program and set a wide variety of machines and use complex CAM software to do it too, so to denigrate us as 'material handlers' is rather insulting.
Add to that the number of us CNC types can and do use the more traditional machine tools and it does make people rather annoyed.

Yes we do work in small companies mostly, but then wee've also worked in big companies and had to deal with the fallout from engineering from on high as you put it.
Ever been under the gun to get an urgent job running after the bright spark of the paid programmer has made a pig's ear of a program* and then gone on vacation leaving you to sort it out?

Boris

* Programed in X and Y coords when the lathe was a simple 2 axis thing that worked in X and Z.... and missed out adding the tool nose comp that ment all the tapered mating faces did'nt mate correctly

gmatov said:

Kid,

WHY did you grow up wanting to be a machinist? How old are you? if you are in the later 40's, of course you did. You didn't have to even BE a machinist. You could get a good job in any factory for decent wages as an operator, and I don't mean what is an operator, today.

Today, they push buttons, AFTER somebody with training sets up the machine. That is not to say that ALL CNC operators are button pushers, but many are. Deny that as you will. YOU may declare that you program, load, offset, etc.. That is you in your little shop. Put you in a shop with a 100 or more machines, you do NOT do your own programming. Offsets, OK, but the program comes down from on high.

I have no problem with actual numerical machinists, if you do your own work. If all you do is follow what is delivered from the engineering dept., the machine does all the work and all you do is load and unload, you ain't a machinist. Machine OPerator is too good a name for you. "Material handler" sounds better. Shove stock in on one side, shovel out finished pieces on the other.

Cheers,

George

Click to expand...

Yeah - I'll go along with this question from everyone else...

Us "CNC types" can't be trusted with a real machne or what?

Actually - up to now - I thought that I did pretty good.



As for the media blip - I git so sick of it.... "can't git good/trained help. (for $8/hr) Need more in skewl classes to benefit ME."


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

At least 4 of you get me wrong, starting with 26 YO coyotekid. He says he does manual work if need be, even tho' he does all that COMPANY stuff, too. Good on you. If you can run a manual machine, I applaud you.

That is, partially, my point. If you CAN run a manual, and you are now running a CNC, you are extending yourself, improving yourself, you can do both. Congratulations.

I hold my resentment, or whatever you call it, for the people hired into Industry who have NO idea what they are doing. They are good with computers, they have played video games for so many years, of COURSE they can do code. Do they KNOW what the result of that code is? Maybe, maybe not.

IF you can crank handles and make that part, you SHOULD be more than adequate to put in some code to do the handle cranking, even tho' there are no handles TO crank. You have to learn HOW to code, but that MUST be easy, look how many BUY CNC's and go into business.

Nice, though, to go to the old SB or Logan on a Friday afternoon with a job that has to get out, and your CNC just blew a transistor, can't be fixed till Monday or Tuesday. Or the Bridgeport.

You CAN'T tell me that guys who do nothing BUT put stock in one end and take parts out the other, NOT you guys, or most of you, those who do their own code and work, are what you can really call "machinists".

I was NOT. I ran VBM's up to 20 feet. I made good parts. I COULD, and DO, run lathes for my own enjoyment.

Ox, I will not contest. You Do do work, and I don't think you would be reluctant, nor unable to do the work on a manual. I would not challenge most of you. I think most of you ARE machinists. Papered or not. You're HERE, aren't you?

Boris,

I don't consider most of you as "material handlers". Some, I do. Have one in my own family. Worked in a factory, AS a "machinist", put brass strip coil in one end of the "machine", emptied the tote pans when they got full. He was paid "Machinist Wages". At least at that company. Piss poor pay, by the way. Robertshaw Controls. He has since lost that job and gotten actual "machinist training", and was more OF a machinist.

NO. There are "machinists" and there are those who get hired to punch buttons, and you all damned well know that.

I don't want to compete with you guys to do cheap assed work, that which you HAVE to buy a CNC to do, because you can spent XXX thou to buy a machine, BUT you don''t have to pay a "Machinist" to tend. You can hire a kid off the street and tell him when he has to call you to change an insert. So you can get the price per piece down 5 % and win a bid.

You are on a trip down to the bottom, if you spend a hundred thou or more to buy a machine to eliminate an actual machinist. THAT button pusher cannot go over to the manual and complete the job. I saw that 40 years ago when Tape came into the mill. Tape operators, hired off the street, swore that TAPE NC was WAY harder than manual. Tapes were punched by the IEs. They threaded them onto the reels, punched a button, and any mistake was on the IEs, even if they made a .250 thou error. They could ALWAYS blame the TAPE. On a conventional, if I missed by a thou, it was my fault.

Of course, I have NO idea whatsoever which of you actually CAN run manuals. Boris got pissed enough, Ox, too, to convince me they actually COULD and DO turn handles.

But to get pissed that someone would think someone who never DID turn a crank was not a "REAL" machinist seems to indicate that THEY think they are not REAL machinists, either. They are button pushers. GOOD button pushers, but still button pushers.

IF you have a machine in your shop and you do all the programming, all the offsets, all the work, and make good product, I will cut you a break. CNC IS the thing, today. If I was not so old, and if I really cared, and if I did work for pay, I would probably buy CNC, even if it was a Haas. Not to cut Haas, but they ask lots of money. So does everybody else..

I'm happy that I am over 65,on SS, Medicare, pension, and I don't have to compete with some of you for work. Actually, there are few of you who would have been actual competitors. Very few of you would want to do the work that my last 15 years consisted of. Bull work. Could have trained an ape to do the work with 100 ton jacks and 20 pound sledges. First 23 years were interesting. That's life. Paid the bills.

Cheers,

George

Good post George.

Apparently there's a spectrum of skills out there.

At one end is the guy who can make anything with a just a hacksaw. Then at the
other end is the guy would could break a pipe wrench just picking it up.

Guys that can run any kind of manual machine, guys that can design parts
for easy manufacture, guys that can do G code programming, guys that are
experts at pushing that green button and knowing when to hit the BRS.

I am certain for one thing the guy who can file the hex shaped block to fit
through the hex shaped hole, using nothing but a nai file, looks down on 'em all.

"Bah. Cranks. Those guys are nothing but crank-turners, not REAL machinists."

At the risk of getting flamed badly, I think some of you old farts are living in the past. (I'm getting there too, and I mean it slightly in jest, so don't get your knickers in a wad...)

I can still recall using an outhouse on the farm. I can also think of at least a few places I can visit today where an outhouse is still a valued commodity. I also doubt very few people would build a house today and stick an outhouse by the back door.

I grew up on manual machines, taught myself how to run them, and moved on. They are still in my shop and see frequent use. For any production parts, they are pretty much useless compared to a CNC machine.

Grab any reasonably new VMC and stack it against a Bridgeport for example. I can do any work on my trusty Fadal 3016L that I can do on my Bridgeport clone running it in the manual mode way faster than I can on the bridgeport, and to a higher tolerance. It's also far faster to set up. For repetitive parts there is just no contest.

I can't honestly see why anyone would buy a manual machine in this day and age to stick into a shop when a decent CNC can be had for not much more $$$.

I recall chuckling at IMTS 2008 when I walked past the row of Chinese manual VMC's. They were priced as much or more than a HAAS toolroom mill, that had CNC capabilities. The Chinese booths were just vacant. Talk about missing the mark.

If a person had a handful of products to manufacture in limited quantities and wanted to set up a facility to so it. Would it make more sense to buy a half dozen or more manual machines and hire a couple crews to run them, or just go straight to CNC and pay a bit more for a much smaller skilled crew to keep things going? Personally I'd rather take some wet behind the ears kid who was highly motivated and train them to run the equipment than hire some crotchety old know it all who spends most of the time telling me how they used to do things at a company that has long since gone extinct.

The days of the masses of employees running rows of manual machines are over. They aren't coming back anytime now or in the future. CNC machines are getting cheaper and easier to program by the day, and let's face it. It doesn't take nearly as skilled an operator to make perfect parts on a CNC machine as it does to do so on a manual machine.

I always chuckle when I go into my buddies shops and watch them run equipment pathetically below the capabilities of the machine. They use the speeds and feeds for inserts from 20 years ago and have never heard of drills spinning at 1120SFM. Many of them get tooling catalogues from the vendors and use them for coffee mug insulators and never crack them open.

Some of them young upstarts are bright enough to look to the feeds and speeds section and see what they can actually achieve and maybe even select something in the line of an insert that is really appropriate for the task at hand.

The guys from the local machining college that sprung my mikes notwithstanding, there are some really bright young machinists out there who can give any of the old farts a run for their money.

Geez, maybe I am getting old enough to get crotchety as well....

Just goes to show, everyone has a point of view.

How about making ONE peice?

I feel that in THAT realm, CNCs can and do get beat. I can usually be done before our cnc gets the block squared, let alone set the tool lengths.

I'm not tryin' to start a fight here, but there are reasons to by a manual machine.

smalltime said:

Just goes to show, everyone has a point of view.

How about making ONE peice?

I feel that in THAT realm, CNCs can and do get beat. I can usually be done before our cnc gets the block squared, let alone set the tool lengths.

I'm not tryin' to start a fight here, but there are reasons to by a manual machine.

Click to expand...

I agree to a point, but the cnc can do what the manual machine can do, but not vis versa.
Most of my jobs are one offs, maybe a manual could beat me in a square block or a washer, but throw in some curves/angles/radii etc and you will still be setting up your rotary table/radius turning attachment whilst I'm packing the job in a box to send to the customer. Increase the numbers and you are even further behind.
I find that most designers will put odd shapes on components because they can, and cnc's allow them to do this easily. I can't remember the last job that came through the door that would have been faster on a manual machine.

I can't remember the last job that came through the door that would have been faster on a manual machine.

Click to expand...

Not that I am dissagreeing with you at all, but the punchline to that last statement would be:


"Of course not, b/c it DIDN'T come through your door."

(implying of course that you were too high)





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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox said:

Not that I am dissagreeing with you at all, but the punchline to that last statement would be:


"Of course not, b/c it DIDN'T come through your door."

(implying of course that you were too high)





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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Click to expand...

When I said through the door, I meant to quote.

Stuart,

Maybe you are getting there. It happens to all of us. This one:

"Some of them young upstarts are bright enough to look to the feeds and speeds section and see what they can actually achieve and maybe even select something in the line of an insert that is really appropriate for the task at hand."

Some of them young upstarts, too, come here and tell us they are running an end mill or an insert at 300 RPM, and wonder why they are getting tearing and weld. They ain't ALL the sharpest knives in the drawer. (That is on 1/2 inch stock or 1/2 inch EM.)

That means they are not ALL all that bright, and they don't ALL read the coasters for info. In fact, I think that very few youg'uns read ANYTHING that does not come up on a computer monitor, or is presented in the form of Manga, or whatever you call the Japanese style of comics.

"or just go straight to CNC and pay a bit more for a much smaller skilled crew to keep things going?"

That would be fine, but it seems to me that too many owners would prefer to pay even less for that button pusher, just because he doesn't have to have any knowledge of machining. He graduated from the Arcade, didn't he?

First is that an American Machinist in any decent sized factory made damned "fair" wages, before we went to Hell. Now, so many are out of work that employers can name their own wages and working conditions, take it or leave it, there are 50 more waiting in line to get the job. And you know that there are 50 shops that would kill to get the jobs you bid and win.

I am not a big fan of NC machines, probably because all I repaired or ran were manuals. NC would be great, were I still in Machine Repair. All those we had were most often broken down for electronic reasons, tho' I had to go out and PROVE it was not mechanical before Electronics would deign to come on the scene. That hedl for conventionals, too, PROVE it is not mechanical before we come out and replace a blown fuse. But on a conventional machine, I could check for a blown fuse, raise hell, and the boss would send the electricians. That might be self interest, but they DID make 3 pay grades above me. They sat till I proved that it was not mechanical.

Does anybody have their repair bills for a NC machine? Are they anywhere near a conventional machine's repair cost?. Cost of doing business I know that repairs are deductible, but do you get the lost production back from the wait for repairs?

Cheers,

George

"run equipment pathetically below the capabilities of the machine."

LOL. My late neighbor used to run construction excavators for a living. He told
me, the biggest tip-off that the operator was a dullard, was that the machine
was at idle when digging.

He said, there's a throttle, you get the revs up so the pumps work right and the
controls have some snap to them. Otherwise he's just wasting time and money!

This from the man, probably in his mid to late 60s, who came over to see what
I was doing after he lent his pickax to me to run a trench out to power my
garage. After watching me flail away for ten minutes, he said "here, let me
try that." He took the tool, got down in the trench, and made ten times the
progress in 1/10th the time, using about 1/10th the effort. A real eye-opener
to me.

Outhouses. Heck, very valuable, if you happen to need one at that particular
moment!

I always figured, if I were to lose all the modern conveniences, I would just as soon
live in a cabin with a hand pump for water, and the path to the outhouse.

Stuart Caruk said:

I always chuckle when I go into my buddies shops and watch them run equipment pathetically below the capabilities of the machine. They use the speeds and feeds for inserts from 20 years ago and have never heard of drills spinning at 1120SFM. Many of them get tooling catalogues from the vendors and use them for coffee mug insulators and never crack them open...

Click to expand...

)

You can run the shit out of whatever you want.
When you have to change inserts or resharpen drills every 5 seconds, it gets a little counter-productive.
Would you care to enlighten us as to what carbide grades are much, much better than 20 years ago? That would be a big contribution. Honest question.
I have found SOME that are much better than the old stand-bys, but not much that really knocked my socks off.

Jeff

TonyOW31 said:

I agree to a point, but the cnc can do what the manual machine can do, but not vis versa.
Most of my jobs are one offs, maybe a manual could beat me in a square block or a washer, but throw in some curves/angles/radii etc and you will still be setting up your rotary table/radius turning attachment whilst I'm packing the job in a box to send to the customer. Increase the numbers and you are even further behind.
I find that most designers will put odd shapes on components because they can, and cnc's allow them to do this easily. I can't remember the last job that came through the door that would have been faster on a manual machine.

Click to expand...

Depends on the piece.

I was not talking about machine generated fillets and complex radii, I was talking about the stuff I do. Very small, very accurate stamping die sections. Try squaring your workpiece. finding the edge, spotting twelve holes in a .200 dia bolt circle, and driling them .011 dia thru .312 thick A2.

I'll bet it would be a good race.

jim rozen said:

I always figured, if I were to lose all the modern conveniences, I would just as soon
live in a cabin with a hand pump for water, and the path to the outhouse.

Click to expand...

To each his own. Personally I'd rather live in a cottage with an indoor toilet connected to a septic system and a basically gravity-fed water system fed from rainwater off of my Colorbond steel roof.

But then, I do.....

PDW