The Logic behind Dismembering Public Employee Unions

The Logic behind Dismembering Public Employee Unions

Can’t say I disagree at ALL with anyone saying we need to reduce the deficit and rein in Government spending. So …

The Logic behind going after the Public Employee Unions
Public Employee Unions are paid for by the public Tax coffers and they in turn then use a portion of their money (Union Dues) to bargain for “Higher Wages”.

OK – so now lets apply that to ALL folks on the “Tax Coffer’s Tit”

ADM – Lobbying for Farm Subsidies

Lockhead Martin – Lobbying for lucrative Defense Contracts

Oil Producers – Lobbying and successfully obtaining $Billions in Tax Credits for Oil Exploration

Haliburton – No Bid / Black Check contracts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Katrina Relief effort.

Wall St Banks –

I guess my question here is “Why go after the little Guy?” when we know full well they will only be replaced by New Private Sector Corporations that will then use portions of the Tax Coffer Funds to Lobby / Support politicians that will then hand them “Fat Contracts”

You don’t even want to compare the $Dollar amounts between what the “Fat Cats” are being handed and the total amount spent on education. In fact State Education spending is “Small Potatoes” compared to what these guys are getting.

And then of course if you even suggested applying that same logic on these guys you would be threatened with a Multitude of Lawsuits from the most prestigious, “High Dollar Law Firms” the corporations could muster

I think


"the good ole white boys" want to reintroduce slavery to be honest with you.
Gww

I've always wondered why the majority of goverment workers are unionized, when one would think that the teachers, firefighters, police, etal, would be pretty well compensated and taken care of without the need of a union. anyone care to explain?

R.A.M. said:

I've always wondered why the majority of goverment workers are unionized, when one would think that the teachers, firefighters, police, etal, would be pretty well compensated and taken care of without the need of a union. anyone care to explain?

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I think you'll find a majority of public employees are not unionized, but unions provide some measure of protection for the workers against being whipsawed by politicians.

South Carolina has no unionized public employees. State employees there pay 50% of their own pensions, and about 30% of their own health insurance costs, along with the full cost of insuring a spouse or dependents. Not exactly a gold plated benefit package it seems, but they're satisfied with it on the whole.

Their newly elected right wing raghead wench governor, who couldn't ever seem to get the taxes paid on time as the CFO of her family's so called mega-business which turns out to be a damn dress shop in a strip mall, announced last week that she's going to solve SC's budget problems by going after the state employees and making them pay their "fair share" of benefits. Seems like, if one looks at the goals of most of the newly elected wingers who're preaching the same sermon she is, a fair share is 100%, combined with a 50% pay cut. Drive these lazy sum-bitches out of the government so we can privatize it all, because its just sickening to look at all the profit potential currently going to waste by having any government at all when we could give the Kochs and the Haliburtons of the world a no-bid contract to run it all. Yeah, the cost of the same services would probably double at a minimum, but somebody would be making a profit off them, and that's all that really matters. No problem at all with passing a big tax increase once we're sure we can dump every last cent of it into private pockets.

Predictably, her "budget crisis" includes a few hundred more $million in tax breaks for businesses, so they'll come to the state and shovel money into the coffers of business's whores while staffing their manufacturing facilities with $10/hr temp help in the tradition of BMW.

Are the unions that represent public employees alowed to contribute to political campaigns?

I can sort of understand the plight of those who are defending their union membership. But on the other hand, I am all for putting pressure on them too.

One gripe I have about Federal, State, & Local govt employees is that as a tax payer I am funding their retirement plans (pension & health benefits). Now I am a taxpayer, and nobody is funding my retirement plan except for myself. I think that govt employees should have to do the same and not have taxpayers support them in retirement.

And as a private sector employee, if I am not performing, or my company has no funds to pay me, I am let go. In govt employment, typically these folks aren't let go. The govt just borrows money, or prints it, or whatever to make the payroll. Its very rare for layoffs in govt. You are starting to hear of furloughs though.

Be sure and understand this should apply to all govt workers, whether a peon, a congress critter, or a president.

And the CEO's of banking, multi-nationals, and mega corps. There is all kinds of evil and greed there. I really wish I could do something about that.

Can someone explain to me why when California needs money, the fitst place they go is education? You NEVER hear about any administrators or their staff being cut. How about cutting sports programs. How much need is there for golf team, or cross country. Sure one in ten thousand get to play professional sports, but what about the other 9,999 who don't.

Why don't they ever go after the nurses union, or any of the public employees unions. How about prison guards. Why do prisoners need air conditioned cells to live in. Sheriff Joe from Miracopa County in Arizona lets his inmates live in tents.

If tent living is good enough for the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, then it's actually too good for someone convicted of a crime.

The death penalty is considered cruel and unusual punishment. What about the person the convicted inmate murdered.

Why does it cost $19,000.00 to keep a prisoner in Texas, and $49,000.00 to keep the same prisoner in California.

" Are the unions that represent public employees alowed to contribute to political campaigns?"

YOU haven't been paying attention in class. Go back to the book and look up
"citizens united" which is a recent supreme court decision that basically nullified
all campaign financing restrictions for corporations. At the same time, it did likewise
for unions.

Damn it I wish all the Walkers would just FIRE all the public employees to make more
money available for tax breaks for companies.

Then when the garbage doesn't get picked up, and when the corporate headquarters
burn down, and when the police no longer show up when their employees start to
get rowdy, maybe, just maybe it'll sink in.

JoeFin said:

I guess my question here is “Why go after the little Guy?” when we know full well they will only be replaced by New Private Sector Corporations that will then use portions of the Tax Coffer Funds to Lobby / Support politicians that will then hand them “Fat Contracts”

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Joe, your question really isn't a question. Its the answer to the real reasons behind the union busting. Namely, privatization and profits for their backers.

In addition to the union busting provisions, and the public property no bid selloff provisions, in Wisconsin's present battle, there's another provision that prevents local governments from having the right to raise their own local taxes except within a narrowly defined set of conditions. IOW, if your local schools are going to hell, and you and the rest of your community vote in a slate of officials who campaign on increasing taxes for school funding, this law would still prevent them from raising those taxes regardless of the level of local support for the increase.

IOW, in addition to wanting to destroy the government for the purpose of privatization, they also want to negate your right to vote for anyone who might disagree with their agenda.

Take a look at the "emergency financial manager" law in Michigan that the Reps are currently in the process of modifying.

Under the new provisions, it appears the Governor could simply declare any political body to be in a financial emergency, and install a handpicked person, OR CORPORATION, to step in and take over the government of the town, county, school district, or any other such entity.

This dictator would have the power to negate any contracts the entity might currently be obligated to, including collective bargaining contracts, BUT EXCLUDING ANY CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS TO BANKS OR OTHER FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

This dictator would also have the power to essentially dissolve the governing body by edict, fire all employees, and enter into a contract for all public services with any private firm of his choice.

Not surprisingly, another limb on the Michigan Republican tree involves about $1.5 billion in cuts to services, primarily to the poor, coupled with a like amount in business tax cuts and credits.

One thing all these people seem to ignore is that they're actively working toward creating a lot of people who feel like they've got nothing more to lose. A man who feels like that is as dangerous as any person you'd ever encounter. Anyone who doesn't believe a lot of them would be willing to take out a few of the people who've beaten him into submission are simply blind to the world around them. If they overplay their hand sufficiently, they'll find out is isn't just mind numbing idiots like Palin who know how to put the crosshairs on the target.

Why do Demorats and Liberals like whine about not getting enough of my tax dollar?

Tom

It's worse than that, 76. In WI they're busy recalling your Koch Enterprise elected
legislators.

From my perspective why is it that republicans keep whining and blubbering they need
more of MY tax dollars to ship overseas to iraq and afghanistan?

Here's my wife's experiences as a Newark Teacher Union layoffee. Basically the state of New Jersey is broke, they have the highest property taxes in the universe and most buisnesses who can pay taxes have left if they are able to, leaving even less people to pay any tax increase. They estimate that the state of New Jersey has lost tens of billions in recent years to lower taxed states.

Anyhow last year Chris Christie found himself elected as a governor of a state that was broke and said to the school system where I believe something like 60% of NJ taxes goes to that it is time to cut back. They went to the union and asked the teachers to either pay a portion of their health and medical insurance or take a more reasonable medical plan like the rest of us poor slobs in the real world.

The union said no, and chose to let the city lay off hundreds of ts untenured teachers instead. You see since the schools are required by law to do last hired first fired, anyone regardless of skill or ability with more than 3 years in and tenure knew they were safe so why should they pay a dime more when it was easier to throw the newbies to the wolves!! You see unions are all about demanding everyone else sacrifice except for themselves of course!

Now my wife now (fiance at the time) got laid off and it was time to pay her health insurance through COBRA, wow were we in for a whopper of a bill! Her health insurance was $1200 a month through COBRA for just her! I would have been another $700. You see the Unions have negotiated a gold plated plan, no copays or anything it costs a fortune!

We in turn were able to go out and buy a very nice plan from United Health Care that has no life time maximum for $250./month for her, it does however carry a $3000/yr deductible, but that isn't too bad if you think about it. Basically if she is healthy we pay $250 a month and get piece of mind, if she is unhealthy we cough up $3000 (which just so happens to be $3000/12= $250 a month) so worst case her whole plan costs us $500/month.

Now I would be willing to bet that had her union not been so damn greedy that no layoffs would have ever needed to take place. I bet Newark could have probably negotiated a far better price than we got off the street and converted everyone over to a similar plan to ours, if the Greedy Union let them. Do the math and you start to realize that if Newark could bring their health care costs down to earth to the tune of in our case over $700 a month for an unhealthy teacher or $950 a month for a healthy one times 7000 employees in the school system on the low side say (7000x700x12months a year= $58.8million in savings alone, yet I am willing to bet the numbers in savings would be even higher especially since the youngest teachers laid off are the cheapest to insure.) This by the way comes with no teacher or student suffering and very good quality of care!

But this isn't what unions stand for, the Newark Teacher's union didn't care about the students or even their non tenured members for that matter all they cared about was themselves. Sadly I think the same forces that bankrupted the big 3 may be doing the same to state and local governments in the not too distant future also.

I should also point out if I sound bitter, it actually turned out bitter sweet my wife was practically ready to quit, the place was a house of horrors, teachers hitting students, students hitting teachers, the only way to get tenure in her school was to ensure that the students passed their standardized tests, which of course meant

By the way if I sound bitter for us it actually worked real well. The school was a horror show yet all that was hiring at the time, and my wife was ready to quit. Basically it was students hitting teachers, teachers hitting students, the only way to get tenure was to have your students all passing the standardized tests even if that meant teachers filling in the answers for those who couldn't read! It kind of makes it real hard for the few newbies who actually try to teach when the kid is 100% proficient year after year on the standardized tests but yet can't read what you write on the board and is in the 7th grade! Since most companies that do any real engineering and manufacturing in the state of Jersey have left cause the taxes are so darn high and I got a job in CT it work out well. Her layoff provided some nice unemployment and now she is in a good school. However there too there is no money to hire new teachers, but plenty to pay for a benefits package to those currently employed by the school that us who work in the private sector could never dream of, so we shall see if she is still there next year. Not looking good so far.

Lastly I will leave you with some comforting words from the Outgoing National Education Association Union Boss Bob Chanin said to make you feel warm and Cozy!
YouTube - NEA POWER & POLITICS

"Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas; it is not because of the merit of our positions; it is not because we care about children; and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child. The NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power. And we have power because there are more than 3.2 million people who are willing to pay us hundreds of million of dollars in dues each year because they believe that we are the unions that can most effectively represent them; the union that can protect their rights and advance their interests as education employees. This is not to say that the concern of NEA and its affiliates with closing achievement gaps, reducing drop rate rates, improving teacher quality, and the like are unimportant or inappropriate. To the contrary these are the goals that guide the work we do. But they need not and must not be achieved at the expense of due process, employee rights, or collective bargaining.
That is simply too high a price to pay."

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Under the new provisions, it appears the Governor could simply declare any political body to be in a financial emergency, and install a handpicked person, OR CORPORATION, to step in and take over the government of the town, county, school district, or any other such entity.

This dictator would have the power to negate any contracts the entity might currently be obligated to, including collective bargaining contracts, BUT EXCLUDING ANY CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS TO BANKS OR OTHER FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

This dictator would also have the power to essentially dissolve the governing body by edict, fire all employees, and enter into a contract for all public services with any private firm of his choice.

Click to expand...

Metlmunchr I am not sure that this is as unheard of as you think. In the private sector when an entity can not pay its obligations and has over extended its promises this is what is called Bankrupcy! The court and the judges do more or less what you speak of in order to get the house back in financial order. The problem today is we have many states darn near insolvent. Their obligations far outstrip their abilities to pay and in many cases with each tax increase comes even less tax revenue. The problem on the other hand is while we do allow municipalities to enter bankruptcy we do not allow it for states. They say as the baby boomers start retiring the states are facing trillions of unfunded pension liabilities and something sooner or later will have to give!

If I have to bail out some pensioner's $100K+ per year pension who will come bailing out my 401K if I run out of money in it? Here's a few good ones to get your blood boiling! California Pension Reform's 'The CalPERS 100K Club'

Reason

No comment

67Cuda said:

Why do Demorats and Liberals like whine about not getting enough of my tax dollar?

Tom

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WOW - try and keep up with the conversation

Lets try and put this in perspective

Calif ............ Deficit = $19.7 Billion .............Amount paid into Iraq War = $21.8 Billion
Michigan .......Deficit = $4.6 Billion ..............Amount paid into Iraq War = $2.0 Billion
Ohio .............Deficit = $6.0 Billion ..............Amount paid into Iraq War = $3.0 Billion

I could go on but I'm sure by now everyone gets the point

Value of Haliburton's "No Bid" Contracts in Iraq ...... $16 Billion and counting

The $400 Army Hammers and $1000 Air Force Toilet Seats haven't taught us nothing

Again - Why go after the little guys

adammil1 said:

Metlmunchr I am not sure that this is as unheard of as you think. In the private sector when an entity can not pay its obligations and has over extended its promises this is what is called Bankrupcy! The court and the judges do more or less what you speak of in order to get the house back in financial order. The problem today is we have many states darn near insolvent. Their obligations far outstrip their abilities to pay and in many cases with each tax increase comes even less tax revenue. The problem on the other hand is while we do allow municipalities to enter bankruptcy we do not allow it for states. They say as the baby boomers start retiring the states are facing trillions of unfunded pension liabilities and something sooner or later will have to give!

If I have to bail out some pensioner's $100K+ per year pension who will come bailing out my 401K if I run out of money in it? Here's a few good ones to get your blood boiling! California Pension Reform's 'The CalPERS 100K Club'

Click to expand...

A wise man once said..."One man's capitalism, is another man's socialism".

Seriously, why is everyone so against helping their fellow man? These principles aren't opposing forces like everyone suggests by lining up in their respective groups...Repubs/Demos...Socialists/Capitalists...City/Rural...Rich/Poor...

They play together! They are intermingled! If you live in a city you use social services like utilities, waste management, sewage, fire/police services...no man is an island and none of you survive on your own.

This whole shebang is about maintaining the status quo...those who have theirs don't want to lose it...those who are losing it don't want to lose anymore...those who have it all want more!

Fuck everyone who thinks that they are somehow miraculously gonna be insulated from the shockwave that is growing and soon to pass through the ENTIRE world...

Guess what, cupcake? You ain't gonna just bar the doors and ride it out. You gotta man up or shut the fuck up and live like a rat, scurrying to avoid the other rats.

There is only ONE earth and ALL of it's resources belong to EVERYONE, not just the rich & powerful. Only when you start seeing heads roll (literally)...from heads of state, to heads of corporations...and the earth's natural resources divided to best suit all those hungry-mouths and hungy-hearts will you see anything like TRUE progress.

Until then, all it's gonna do is get worse. None of us are "equal, but some are more equal than others". A rich man can die the same as a poor man, and there are ALOT more of US than THEM.

Adammil,

There is no such THING as an underfunded pension , UNLESS the pension Manager, in the case of States and large Corps, to have taken the money that I, as one of their employees, gave them, AS a part of my pay package.

YOU, idiot that you are, think that PENSIONS are CORPORATE largess. Every penny that goes into the Pension Fund is a penny that was SUPPOSED to be part of your pay package.

They do not throw extra money into the Pension Fund, when they decide to. They have CONTRACTED with the UNION to put this much into wages, this much into vacation, this much into Pensions. THAT is all CONTRACTED remuneration.

"I will work for you for 17 bucks an hour, 25 cents goes to this that or the other, and I will accept 12 bucks as an hourly wage."

When MY Pension is UNDERFUNDED, that means that you have decided that the Stock Market is so lucrative that you can STEAL my CONTRACTED WAGE, and do as you wish with it, THEN cry that you have all them "Legacy Costs".

You have, basically, stolen money from me, no 2 ways about it. I contracted with you for XX to go to my Pension, and you gave it to your top execs as a bonus, instead.

WHEN you demand that a UNION employee pay MORE for his Insurance, does it ever occur to you that you are breaching your Contract WITH that Employee. YOU entered into a Contract that said you would pay all BUT that portion OF that Employee's Medical Insurance. 2%, say. 12 hundred per month, it goes to 1800, take money from the Employee to cover the unanticipated rise in coverage. Ipso facto, you have cut his pay.

That goes for you guys who are non-UNION, or SCABS. IF you get any bennies, part of your pay, AND they decide you have to pay a bigger share, it ALL comes out of YOUR end!

They DO NOT throw another half a buck into the wages to cover that.

But, then again, we do not have the sharpest knives in the drawer on this board.

Cheers,

george

Adammill,
You are an ass.

"If I have to bail out some pensioner's $100K+ per year pension who will come bailing out my 401K if I run out of money in it? Here's a few good ones to get your blood boiling! California Pension Reform's 'The CalPERS 100K Club'"

FIRST, few working people MAKE 100 thou in pension. Mine is 792 bucks per month, after Insurance, so don't fuck with me. I live WAY more off SS than my PENSION!

When you bail out 100 thou pensions, they are either Civil Service, or Corporate, and I don't know if Civil Service rises to that level. I think it may, depending on Seniority, and I KNOW how much you hate THAT word. Smart ass that you are, you KNOW that you are better than all them old farts who have done what should be YOUR job, but all them old farts just won't die.

You got all that much money in the bank or your own 401 that you can fuck over the SS System? It just MIGHT be what you have to live on, given another drop like we have had in the past 10 years. TWICE, the Stock Market has dipped about 60%.

IF you were dependent upon it for your income, you would have had to cut way back, or keep expenses at the same level and go broke sooner rather than later.

Do you THINK you are immune to the market? You are naive.

George

Under the new provisions, it appears the Governor could simply declare any political body to be in a financial emergency, and install a handpicked person, OR CORPORATION, to step in and take over the government of the town, county, school district, or any other such entity.

This dictator would have the power to negate any contracts the entity might currently be obligated to, including collective bargaining contracts, BUT EXCLUDING ANY CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS TO BANKS OR OTHER FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

This dictator would also have the power to essentially dissolve the governing body by edict, fire all employees, and enter into a contract for all public services with any private firm of his choice.

Click to expand...

adammil1 said:

Metlmunchr I am not sure that this is as unheard of as you think. In the private sector when an entity can not pay its obligations and has over extended its promises this is what is called Bankrupcy! The court and the judges do more or less what you speak of in order to get the house back in financial order. The problem today is we have many states darn near insolvent. Their obligations far outstrip their abilities to pay and in many cases with each tax increase comes even less tax revenue. The problem on the other hand is while we do allow municipalities to enter bankruptcy we do not allow it for states. They say as the baby boomers start retiring the states are facing trillions of unfunded pension liabilities and something sooner or later will have to give!

Click to expand...

You need to do a little more reading about the changes the Republicans are proposing in Michigan. They've had such a law in place for quite a while, and its intended for dealing with extreme cases where the political body is clearly insolvent. Its been used, but rarely, and only in legitimate emergency situations.

The changes would allow the governor to declare any entity to be be in a financial emergency simply because he says they're in one. It has nothing to do with the actual financial state of the entity in question. Anytown, MI can have its affairs in perfect order, yet the governor could declare an emergency and put his hand picked flunky in place to run the town with absolute authority.

Now, you tell me why the Republicans would want such a power, and cite just one example where such expanded power could be applied in a legitimate manner, without disenfranchising the voters in the locality where such power is applied.

FWIW, this hasn't even a remote similarity to legitimate bankruptcy proceedings.

JoeFin said:

Lets try and put this in perspective

Calif ............ Deficit = $19.7 Billion .............Amount paid into Iraq War = $21.8 Billion
Michigan .......Deficit = $4.6 Billion ..............Amount paid into Iraq War = $2.0 Billion
Ohio .............Deficit = $6.0 Billion ..............Amount paid into Iraq War = $3.0 Billion

I could go on but I'm sure by now everyone gets the point

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You left out one important statistical comparison.......

Total approximate amount now being pissed away in Afghanistan per year = ~$130 billion

Total current annual deficits of all the 50 states = ~$130 billion

Must just be f'kin magic how some numbers work out, huh?