Manufacturers who move into and out from trading partners Countries. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    At least I have my cousin Kent Clarke protecting me. He is a newspaper reporter.smiling_superman.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Clarke View Post
    At least I have my cousin Kent Clarke protecting me. He is a newspaper reporter.smiling_superman.jpg
    Does he fly backwards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    Does he fly backwards?
    Only since Gay Pride parades became all the rage...

    Men's Trap Door Long Underwear

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Why is Ikea relevant, and/or essential.

    who really cares?
    Well IKEA allows people with limited means to buy and assemble decent furniture. So if your a student IKEA, on a fixed income etc IKEA can be a very viable method of buying furniture. Their meat balls aren't to bad either

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Well IKEA allows people with limited means to buy and assemble decent furniture. So if your a student IKEA, on a fixed income etc IKEA can be a very viable method of buying furniture.
    C'mon, what's wrong with orange crates ? Or haydite blocks and 2x4's ?

    I don't get it with the nattering nabobs of negativism ... if you need some shelves for the garage, are you going to buy Ethan Allen ? Ikea was okay for what they were meant to be ...


    btw, Spinit - about leaving the foreign country - China has an interesting twist on that. You can leave the Hotel China but you can't take any stuff with you. So now you can compete with your own ex-machinery and all those guys you trained

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Well IKEA allows people with limited means to buy and assemble decent furniture. So if your a student IKEA, on a fixed income etc IKEA can be a very viable method of buying furniture. Their meat balls aren't to bad either
    "serviceable" furniture-shaped-objects, maybe.

    As-in a chest of drawers for clothing that's nicer looking than the prior option. A stack of pasteboard boxes and a mound of re-purposed supermart plastic bags.

    "Decent"? No Fine WAY! There is no particle-board, paperboard, nor OSB ANYWHERE in "decent" furniture.

    Been that poor. Pre-Ikea. Thankfully. Got hands on a beat-up Disston hand-saw and went to scavenging plywood and packing-cases.

    Stained one bookcase with brown Shinola shoe-polish, diluted with paint-thinner.

    Bad idea!

    Good learning experience.


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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Gordon,
    I am certain now, that you haven't done significant business in the US.

    Stick to your day job (what ever it is?), and you can watch from a distance that the US Economy doesn't need low wage jobs.
    I am not Gordon. I am Gordorella.

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    [QUOTE=g-coder05;3385549] Shit, the first time a drink is spilled it swells up like night shoppers at Walmart! /QUOTE]

    Now that is funny as hell!!!

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    I have never bought IKEA and do not have any friends who buy them either. I do like La z y Boy and they are very expensive and yet they last. Except for the first one I bought. My brother in Law and his wife came over and they both got into the chair leaned it back and crack it was done. I had it for only a couple of weeks. Bummed me out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    The LA Times hints fairly strongly it was a pending union drive. It doesn't sound like a nice place to work so now people won't have to suffer that burden any longer. Not if you're from that town of course, but a 300 person plant closing is national news? What did they make, one particular bookshelf model? Probably only news because of the brand.
    Bush Industries > Home

    Is local, have a couple of plants, one in Erie.

    Low wages, cheap furniture "Flat Pack" for our UK cousins.

    Moved to a new plant in Erie, to get cash, and 10 years tax free.

    After 10 years, made that plant go bankrupt (but not the parent company)
    and reset the clock.

    cheap furniture, with no craftsman involved.
    I'm told the forklift drivers are the highest paid, as they can doo the most
    damage.

    C.N.C. routers operators just "push the beeg green button", and can't
    hurt much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I have never bought IKEA and do not have any friends who buy them either.
    IKEA makes products for urban shoppers with basically no budget. I don't think the demographics of this board are all that similar to their customer base.

    My wife and I have bought a few IKEA/Wayfair items in the recent past (2-3 years), all for storing stuff. It looks fine in our living room, holds up well enough given the use we give it (not much), and will probably be replaced when our lives change enough that they're no longer relevant. I will say that the IKEA furniture is much better designed than the Wayfair stuff. Whether there's much value in that is a different story.

  17. #32
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    Ikea built the plant here in the first place because US workers were so cheap- they paid, including benefits, well under half for labor in the USA as they did in Scandinavia.
    But as the Chinese go more saavy about marketing, and the eastern europeans were closer, Ikea would rather pay romanians ten bucks an hour than pay americans the same amount- its easier to drive to Romania from their main markets in Europe.
    Plus, as mentioned in the links, Ikea is coming late to internet marketing, which requires warehousing and shipping- which is what they will be investing in here.

    I have bought a fair amount of Ikea stuff. Its cheap, and easy, and pretty crappy.
    But it works, and my college age kids have it in their apartments.
    It is well designed, its just made from cardboard and wood chips.

    NONE of their competitors are really US manufacturers.
    I had a real Lazy Boy for 20 years- it cost something like $700 bucks. Today, Lazy Boys run from about $600 to $2000.
    Ikea has pretty comfortable chairs for a hundred to two hundred dollars.
    They sell to a very different market.

    A better example of foreign investment in factories here would be:
    Cars- Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, Kia, Hyundai, and others have spent several billion or more each building factories- and their employees make more per hour than the Ikea ones did.
    or
    Steel- a good dozen foreign steelmakers have spent $1 to $5 Billion on new USA steel mills in the last 15 years or so.
    Again, much better wages, better job security.

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    Good point any and all examples should be mentioned. IKEA is recent news yet IKEA need not be the only good example where this happens.

  19. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Ikea built the plant here in the first place because US workers were so cheap- .
    Partially....and partially because of offered incentives. Corporate welfare = bad. Want to give business a break? Do it transparently on an open basis and on an equal playing field.

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  21. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Partially....and partially because of offered incentives. Corporate welfare = bad. Want to give business a break? Do it transparently on an open basis and on an equal playing field.
    Nobody, ever, in the history of the world, has managed to do that. But theoretically, its possible. Maybe when AI's run things.

    Remember, if there were no incentives, there would not have been an aluminum industry in the USA- Until they decamped to cheaper countries, they never paid market rate for electricity. Hence 20 aluminum smelters in Washington and Oregon States, because of the BPA and its subsidized power.

    I think eliminating "corporate welfare" is pretty impossible, but I am all in favor of making it more transparent, and discussing in the Congress and at a State level, who is getting tax breaks, and why. Without subsidies, we wouldnt have satellites, the internet, waterjet cutting, lasers, computers, a power grid, jet aircraft, and a couple of hundred other things that have made private industry trillions.
    But it should be open, up front, and discussed publiclly, then reviewed regularly, and updated as needed.
    Does Boeing really need a total exemption from Sales Tax, and $3 Billion in free infrastructure?


    Official on Ikea incentives: 'At the end of the day, we got more money than we gave' | Business | godanriver.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Remember, if there were no incentives, there would not have been an aluminum industry in the USA- Until they decamped to cheaper countries, they never paid market rate for electricity. Hence 20 aluminum smelters in Washington and Oregon States, because of the BPA and its subsidized power.
    BPA, TVA, earliest days (ALCOA came out of the NE, after all) maybe even Niagra..

    But there's the other barrier to transparency.

    Much of what you mentioned was also powering the plants that refined the material for atom bombs, "cold" war era.

    Add the defense industry in general, and all manner of stuff is opaque, even though only part of it actually NEEDS to be.

    "Saving grace", if any, is that's also a lot of jobs, wages, health, and retirement plans for taxpayers.. who often actually do vote.

    JMNSHO, but the exreme cocentratins didn't use to be as extreme. Even the Great Microsoft scam made a LOT of folk well below Gates & Allen level "comfortable", if not also wealthy.

    The Googles facebooks, Amazons, and such, present-era, are outright scary - or SHOULD BE - by comparison as to how much power - political as well as economic - they have concentrated into so few hands, and not necessarily wise or responsible ones, either.

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  24. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Who is a similar maker who does the best furniture now a days?
    I would say the Amish make some of the best furniture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Nobody, ever, in the history of the world, has managed to do that. But theoretically, its possible. Maybe when AI's run things.

    Remember, if there were no incentives, there would not have been an aluminum industry in the USA- Until they decamped to cheaper countries, they never paid market rate for electricity. Hence 20 aluminum smelters in Washington and Oregon States, because of the BPA and its subsidized power.

    I think eliminating "corporate welfare" is pretty impossible, but I am all in favor of making it more transparent, and discussing in the Congress and at a State level, who is getting tax breaks, and why. Without subsidies, we wouldnt have satellites, the internet, waterjet cutting, lasers, computers, a power grid, jet aircraft, and a couple of hundred other things that have made private industry trillions.
    But it should be open, up front, and discussed publiclly, then reviewed regularly, and updated as needed.
    Does Boeing really need a total exemption from Sales Tax, and $3 Billion in free infrastructure?


    Official on Ikea incentives: 'At the end of the day, we got more money than we gave' | Business | godanriver.com


    I'm not talking about open legislated and equally applied fiscal policy. Its this selective corporate welfare - selective as in one company hand picked over another. Like Ikea getting real estate tax breaks the other business in the town do not. That is so wrong, instead create one set of rules that apply to all is what should happen. At least so far as municipal taxes are concerned that is how it works here, provincial law makes it illegal for municipalities to play tax favourites. If a municipality whats a better manufacturing base, they work to have lower industrial taxes rather than give away your and my money to some business that can close up like this one (or happens to be paying off the mayor). Your business and you personally shouldn't taxed to pay for my free ride.

    Doing this is the basis of cronyism and is why good theoretical systems become unfair and corrupt. The whole concept of good government precludes cronyism and playing favorites, hand outs and money to favoured individual firms or people. They are suppose to be trusted stewards of the tax money and put in place transparent and rules that blindly apply to all, not their pals or favs. I'm not naive and I know crooked politicians abound, however the basic mechanism of it, politicians in choosing individual firms or people for handouts should be objected to. If I'm wrong and a lot of people think this is ok for gov to do, well, I'll just try harder to not give a shit and worry about looking out for my own. It seems such an absurd thing to object to, kind makes you lose hope if people are in favour of essentially cronyism.

    Often its done in the light day - various agencies here fund businesses , and that's wrong as well. Government does a terrible job of credit adjudication and frankly its not clear why its ok for them to forcibly take from you and give money to someone who's caught their attention and favour. Instead if you want more capital for business, do things that create a more competitive banking sector (our problem, less so yours), encourage early stage VC money through fiscal policy, lower tax for industrial real estate, lower income tax for small business etc ...basically use open legislated fiscal policy to achieve goals rather than favoritism and cronyism.

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    In the UK we put one of their kitchens into a rental of ours. Very good value for money.
    The sliding drawer/cabinet rail/runners (whatever you want to call them) are exceptionally well made IMO.
    We also have the odd bit of stuff here in Spain - again, it's come a long way from 10 years ago in quality of design and finish.

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    businesses get tax breaks and other benefits based on where they are. tariffs, taxes, labor rates, anti pollution requirements all have effects.
    .
    many many times a country or state will cry about lowering taxes 5% but loose the deal cause another country lowered their taxes 10%, and many states will offer incentives to new business but NOT to existing businesses. businesses often plan 5 years at a time and if factory is paid for after 4 years but profits are low they often will close factory at the end of 5 years
    .
    steel industry has been shifting production monthly based on exchange rates, tariffs, etc for decades its nothing new but actually common normal and expected.
    .
    German papermills have taken business from smaller USA papermills cause the Germans invested in larger machines which make paper at lower prices. smaller mills cannot compete cause they have a higher unit cost cause they have smaller mills. Germans are not known for low labor rates but are known for designing bigger and better factories. Same with steel mills, bigger newer mills are more efficient and smaller steel mills cannot compete. if you dont continuously invest and improve factories you competition will improve and take the business away


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