Manufacturers who move into and out from trading partners Countries. - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    "serviceable" furniture-shaped-objects, maybe.

    As-in a chest of drawers for clothing that's nicer looking than the prior option. A stack of pasteboard boxes and a mound of re-purposed supermart plastic bags.

    "Decent"? No Fine WAY! There is no particle-board, paperboard, nor OSB ANYWHERE in "decent" furniture.

    Been that poor. Pre-Ikea. Thankfully. Got hands on a beat-up Disston hand-saw and went to scavenging plywood and packing-cases.

    Stained one bookcase with brown Shinola shoe-polish, diluted with paint-thinner.

    Bad idea!

    Good learning experience.

    So we have three Ikea dressers. Wife liked design, look, and price. We bought, I assembled.

    If you put them together well, and don't strip screws, etc. they are serviceable dressers. Finish (painted in this case) is pretty darn good.

    There is not a drop of particle board anywhere in the dresser. The only small-scale composite material is the masonite back, which is used on most modern furniture of any make. All the other material is finger-jointed, glued-up panels or full-width, monolithic boards. It's all some kind of pretty-fast-growth pine, based on its lightness, grain pattern, and smell (which is pretty pleasant.) But no particle or chipboard at all.

    Most of our other furniture is "heirloom" stuff passed down from generations. Things like the armoire that is constructed from 5/4 solid original growth walnut (18" one-piece boards), fastened with cut nails, and backed with 3/4" walnut hand-shaped panels. Or the roll-top desk with a gloss-varnish finish over highly-figured oak that is still holding up after almost 100 years.

    We bought a Lazy-boy couch a couple of years ago. Custom ordered. They shipped the wrong color upholstery the first time. Second time there were different shades of upholstery on different parts, and quarter-sized spots where their Scotchgard-type chemical reacted strangely with the fabric. Third couch came from elsewhere...

    Bought a round dining room table in a 'craftsman' style (not Sears) from a large local furniture store. The edge-banding was never right, since the router that finished the perimeter was not at right angles to the tabletop in one 8" segment. So, the edge-banding won't stay 'flat' to the edge. Couple of tries by their in-house team to fix, but no joy. They ended up discounting it enough for us to live with it, but I eventually need to fix it right. Which I will do, if we ever end up actually using the dining room...

    So, "quality" furniture isn't always, and "serviceable" furniture is sometimes the best choice.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    I'm not talking about open legislated and equally applied fiscal policy. Its this selective corporate welfare - selective as in one company hand picked over another ....
    We disagree sometimes, Mcgyver, but your heart's in the right place. ^ This is absolutely 250% correct ...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    We disagree sometimes, Mcgyver, but your heart's in the right place. ^ This is absolutely 250% correct ...
    well thanks that....and on disagreeing, I just haven't had enough time with you yet

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    countries and states that give tax breaks and not much different than 2 unions competing with one another where there locations overlap. kind of hard to ask for $40./hr when a different union only asks for $20./hr
    .
    in China stores are often in the hundreds of stores located on same street. you cannot sell anything too high a price if there are a 100 other stores with a cheaper price nearby.
    .
    factory in New York State offered 5% tax break but looses the factory cause Colorado gave a 10% tax break. even governments compete with each other
    .
    i have seen 5 year old factory shutdown cause profit was 10% and production was moved to location where profit was higher. big company often has locations in different states in the USA that basically are in competition and are told DAILY you dont do better company will move all production to other site. thats fellow Americans competing against one another say from NY and Colorado

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post

    I have bought a fair amount of Ikea stuff. Its cheap, and easy, and pretty crappy.
    It is well designed, its just made from cardboard and wood chips.
    Many of their dining style chairs are of design necessity solid wood. Their best leather sofas are actually pretty nice. One problem with IKEA KD furniture is there might be a scratch on a dining table top for example but you don't find out until you open the box at home or office. You can return it of course, but what a PITA...and who's to say it's replacement isn't scratched even worse ! Still they are wildly sucessful.

    Below link to book on sucessful USA furniture manufacturing. However I've seen some VB furniture in real life and unfortunately IKEA is actually better made in some respects.

    Vaughan-Bassett Furniture Company | Factory Man

  6. #46
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    IKEA is fine, even very good for the price point.
    We have this formula for marital bliss.
    The wife needs some furnishing or another and I insist I can build better than she can buy.
    She eventually gets over to a IKEA and start acting like she is going to drag something home and I am really put out- “no really, that’s crap I can(will..) build it”.

    Of course I have time for maybe one in three of the projects that need doing. So over the years of this the wife has learned exactly what makes for a decent piece of furniture and can find in a place like ikea some simple, well designed and constructed gear.
    She buys it and I don’t complain.
    We don’t have much but what we have from IKEA is fine.

    Someone mentioned leather Sofa from IKEA.
    I am sitting on one- it has stood up to years of large dogs so I can’t see any room for complaint.
    Last edited by Trboatworks; 07-19-2019 at 12:02 PM.

  7. #47
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    a lot of factories shutdown for many reasons. competition from other manufacturers is important. you cannot sell $2000. televisions if others made same types for $500.
    .
    once worked on factory made vhs tape for vcr recording of tv shows. they setup factory when tapes were $10. each and could easily make a profit. when tape prices went to $3. a tape cause of competition their profit was down to 5 to 10%. bosses said that aint enough profit. they rather keep the money in something else that made a higher profit

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Someone mentioned leather Sofa from IKEA.
    I am sitting on one- it has stood up to years of large dogs so I can’t see any room for complaint.
    Swings and roundabouts...

    No dogs. Nor kids.

    Hong Kong: Nice LOOKING eyetalian-made custom leather sofas we get about six to ten years out of.

    Even the ones with pushbutton-release recliners at both ends, I can still lift. Nuthin' much under them but Pirelli belting and zigger-wire. Coupla thousand US$ each go.

    Sterling: Same line of 30-year garonteed US-made leather goods the Kennedy's used to redecorate the White House or "Grand" hotels had put in their pricier suites and lobby lounges. Not really MEANT for "residential" family use.

    I can NOT lift it. Nothing much under it but premium Oak, cast-iron, and steel coils, eight large casters. $8,000 USD, 1989, on sale for $6,000.

    Still looks every bit like new. All OVER. Looks to still do that for another 30+ years., near-zero maintenance or repairs.

    Which means it is the least-expensive leather couch as well as the more comfortable one, after all.

  9. #49
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    Thread seems a bit distorted to me.

    I would think that US jobshop people would lament losing US jobs.
    If IKEA closes a plant, or Honda an auto plant, the effect is the same.
    US jobs are lost.

    I don´t see the basic quality of the Ikea furniture as being a feature, since us jobs are equally important no matter the furniture quality.

    And almost always, foreign multinationals in the US pay better and provide better benefits than us companies.
    Japanese car companies in the US are a good example.
    Better pay, better bennies, better treatment.

    And mostly, japanese auto companies and others (ABB) focus on worker training and lifetime longevity.
    (Mostly) Free training & education makes workers more valuable, and they get higher pay, but the company makes more money overall.

    I agree on the subsidies in tax, infra, and other that US states and cities give companies new plants as being negative.
    However, since they give them to any big company, the problem is not ikea but the system.

  10. #50
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    So in 1989 You could comfortably afford a couch comfortably valued at (double 3x on 30 years) 64.000$ today, 30 y ago.
    A bank valuation is double / 9 years, so 8k x2 x2 x2 == 64.000$ in todays money / value + quite a bit left over.

    You had the cash at the time, so spending it on premium-comfort capital goods was not a "bad idea".
    And yes, premium furniture will have utility upto 100 years or more.

    It is not an economic choice available to 99.x% of people,
    and it is not the cheapest per lifetime or best economically "premium" choice.

    Buying 3 premium leather couches -- mass-market -- would have saved you about half the money in value over 30 years.
    And the third chouch at 10 years each might have low-negligible residual value today.
    The couches would have been just as comfortable.
    Not as heavy and upmarket, if upmarket was important to you.

    E.
    I bought a "premium" Ikea leather couch about 25 years ago.
    After 4 moves, and to a different country 3000 km away, they are still fine.
    Worn, couple tears (hidden), some smudges from our 5 year old.
    3000 fim, 500€, 25 years ago, about 3500€ in economic equivalent using the same formula but for 25 years not 30 years.
    == 3500€ == 4000$ in economic value vs 64.000$ for your case.

    Example 2.
    A Festool 105 belt sander, some belts (4 boxes x 10), 1150€.
    Best in the world (too noisy).
    It never makes sense to buy the Festo, but if You can it will probably be the most reliable and easiest to repair.

    Hitachi industrial is second-line at half the price, generally (don´t think they had the sander).
    Hilti industrial is similar.



    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Not really MEANT for "residential" family use.

    I can NOT lift it. Nothing much under it but premium Oak, cast-iron, and steel coils, eight large casters. $8,000 USD, 1989, on sale for $6,000.

    Still looks every bit like new. All OVER. Looks to still do that for another 30+ years., near-zero maintenance or repairs.

    Which means it is the least-expensive leather couch as well as the more comfortable one, after all.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    You had the cash at the time, so spending it on premium-comfort capital goods was not a "bad idea".
    Actually, I did not. Put half on each of two credit cards. Didn't have the cash, but did have "a plan", IOW.

    the <cheaper> couches would have been just as comfortable.
    You missed the point. No guessing involved. We HAVE HAD "both" over a period of.. meahh 31 years and counting? Coupla generations of family and friends experience before that. Also Olefin upholstered, high-grade construction ... and otherwise. Solid frames, cast mounting components, steel coils, no Ziggerwire. No Pirelli belting.

    The lesser ones are nowhere NEAR as comfortable, whether for sitting, napping.. or shagging.

    It isn't about economic or political "class". Different kind of "class", the sort adopted by wise merchants, be it furniture, machine-tools, tooling, cutters, aircraft, or automobiles:

    "Class tells. Class sells. And class ...will never let you down."

    Time was, we even tried to apply it to political leaders. We got the odd "Statesman", even.

    Now? Markdowns, mostly.

    Harbor-Freight grade politicians. Defectives unfit for a purpose even BEFORE put to the test of actual use.

  12. #52
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    I got the point, perfectly.
    It does not matter how you paid for them.
    You did pay, You could, good for You.

    My only point was that it is not actually cheaper, it is(was) much more expensive in reality, vs premium stuff available mass-market.
    You claimed it is cheaper.
    I disagree.


    And most people could never invest/spend the equivalent of 64.000$ in todays money on couches --
    only the ones spending 500k++ on furnishings and decoration.
    That is much less than 1% of US popula.

    --
    30 years ago the current offerings did not exist.
    At that time, Your choice was probably much better.
    ( vs todays market).


    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Actually, I did not. Put half on each of two credit cards. Didn't have the cash, but did have "a plan", IOW.

    You missed the point. No guessing involved. We HAVE HAD "both" over a period of.. meahh 31 years and counting? Coupla generations of family and friends experience before that. Also Olefin upholstered, high-grade construction ... and otherwise. Solid frames, cast mounting components, steel coils, no Ziggerwire. No Pirelli belting.

    The lesser ones are nowhere NEAR as comfortable, whether for sitting, napping.. or shagging.

    It isn't about economic or political "class". Different kind of "class", the sort adopted by wise merchants, be it furniture, machine-tools, tooling, cutters, aircraft, or automobiles:

    "Class tells. Class sells. And class ...will never let you down."

    Time was, we even tried to apply it to political leaders. We got the odd "Statesman", even.

    Now? Markdowns, mostly.

    Harbor-Freight grade politicians. Defectives unfit for a purpose even BEFORE put to the test of actual use.

  13. #53
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    I do not understand why someone has not taken on these tax breaks and declared them taxable gifts. make the companies getting tax breaks pay income taxes on the gift of no taxes for ten years or however long. The IRS will split the penalties with the whistle blowers.
    Same as below market rate rents for sports teams.
    Bil lD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    I do not understand why someone has not taken on these tax breaks and declared them taxable gifts. make the companies getting tax breaks pay income taxes on the gift of no taxes for ten years or however long. The IRS will split the penalties with the whistle blowers.
    Same as below market rate rents for sports teams.
    Bil lD
    No. You do not "understand". But that is no sin.

    Anyone thinks it is "easy" should try reading the US Tax Code.

    Before you start, be aware .... because you will not have time to return ...

    Congress averages three changes to Federal tax Code every work day, all year. And has been doing that for the better part of fifty years.

    That's why the IRS has the Devil's own time - EACH NEW TAX YEAR - writing or revising so much of the instructions in so very many more publications than anyone NOT in a large and complex business is even aware are published.

    Now.. picture what US State taxes add to that.

    Example: "Day Job" didn't operate in Alaska or Hawaii, so... of the one-hundred and fifty-three "bodies corporate" we needed to operate as "a phone company" in the "lower 48" AKA "continental" USA + D.C.?

    Three per each US State & the District of Columbia were needed to compartmentalize for survivable tax efficiency. The staff experts took-on more than one state per-head, of course. Even so, there were about 30 Accountants on it.

    You wish to understand the "why" of that.. or how to audit it? Go thee and study-up.

    As said, you won't have TIME to come back here!

    Oh. BTW.. d'you know how many COUNTY and/or CITY/MUNICIPALITY tax jurisdictions the USA has?

    For extra credit?

    We'll do Italy. Then Spain.

    UK is too easy...



    Buuuuuuut .. the Companies you mention? 60 to 120 Country-class Jurisdictions may have to be in their expertise. Hired. Of course.

    Pay wasn't half bad, though.

    More to it than just "bean counting", y'see.


  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    I do not understand why someone has not taken on these tax breaks and declared them taxable gifts. make the companies getting tax breaks pay income taxes on the gift of no taxes for ten years or
    The short answer is they do pay income tax on it, if you're talking about the break being real estate taxes. If you let them off the hook for $10 in real estate tax, income is credited, goes up, by $10. Income tax is, well, based on income and obviously there are lots of other things effecting whether there will be income, but basically without the break its an expense so reduces taxable income, with the break its no longer an expense and increases taxable income


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