Manufacturing in Britain

Britain's industry has been ruined. This has resulted in not only a loss of jobs, highly skilled and paid jobs at that, but it is also a humiliation for a great country and people like ours not to make anything.

As a bare minimum we should design and build our own ships, trains, aeroplanes, trucks, wind turbines, etc., etc., etc. We are not even doing this.

We are the direct descendants of the most intelligent, inventive people possible imaginable. With our people, under the right leadership, we could do amazing things again, things we could all be happy and proud of.

There was a golden opportuninty recently to design and build in Britain some high speed trains for Britain's east coast mainline to replace our excellent, designed and built in Britain 125s and 225s, and thereby restore some pride and happiness into our people. Instead the contract to design and build trains for Britain was automatically given to a foreign country, Japan, a country who would never let a foreign country build its trains. This is a humiliation.

It's the same story in all areas. Take shipbuilding for example. As a bare minimum every single Royal Navy ship should be designed and built in a British shipyard. Recently, a contract to build 4 Royal Navy tankers went to Korea.

I well remember when our 225s first came out the pride and excitement I felt. You do not get the same feeling for foreign trains (or cars, ships, etc.). It connects with something deep inside of you.

The other European countries are still designing and building their own trains (not to mention ships, cars, trucks, aeroplanes, wind turbines, etc.), they are still getting those feelings of pride and excitement, in multiple fields. We are not designing and building in a single one of these fields. We have been absolutely humiliated.

What we need is a complete change of attitude and leadership here in Britain, everyone wants this by now. No longer can we accept "leaders" who every single time Britain needs some new trains etc., literally without exception, automatically give the orders to foreign countries (not to mention "leaders" who are in favour of non stop immigration, etc.).

As they have destroyed literally every single one of our factories we actually have a golden opportunity to build brand new factories, with state of the art equipment, and then, whenever Britain needs some new trains (or ships, trucks, turbines, etc.) automatically give the orders to our factories.

We have another golden opportunity to design and build some high speed trains in Britain if they go ahead with the new high speed line. We have to have leaders who will do this.

We have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and start standing proudly as a people and country again. Once we do that anything is possible.

Well, at least you're again making some really good motorcycles there. No signs of the Prince Of Darkness (Joseph Lucas), and it only marks its spot via spinning up the rear wheel.

It's my third one of the new generation. Thank you very much!



Good luck with the train project, mate.

Sure sounds good on paper gov. owns all enterprise sells to itself unions gets involved workers paradise---Trevor

Well Mr Osborne is saying that manufacturing has to come back ,we will have to wait and see, I think it will take a hell of a lot to bring it back as the current mindset is to source everything from somewhere cheaper so there is more money to enjoy ourselves ,that appeals to the vast majority of the population.

About the only company to buck the trend is JCB ,but that is a private company who don't have pen pushers with no interest in manufacturing to keep happy.

If manufacturing were to boost up I can see the imigration increasing ,quite a large proportion of the people I deal with (at all levels) are foreign as they are more interested in manufacturing /engineering jobs (or any job at all).

I'd like to see more ship building in the UK not so long ago we were great at it, but there still is hi tech products being built over here and shipped round the globe

BBC News - Wrightbus wins major contract for fuel-efficient buses
BBC News - Weapons deal boost for east Belfast company Thales

Here's two recent examples see we still build busses lol

Don't belive all you read about that company, like most they still have to keep the prices down and were the parts come from. In anything generally theres more labour in there parts production than design and final assembly combined!

Eqaully i think you would be surprised at just how much design and manufacture is done here still. Just we do the harder specilist stuff, not the every day supermarket items you list. Making a boat hull hardly justifies the cost of English workers, and certainly not independent scots workers. The real question is in the world we live in do we really need a fraction of the armed forces we have.

As to destroyed factories, IMHO it was ever gready workers of all pay scales wanting ever more money turning out the same crap. A lot of the older british makes, generaly spent the last 25 years of the last century turning out the same crap from the 1970's. Add in the baby boom generation hitting - approaching retirment and its little wonder they got stale, wanted to cash out while the going is good and not bother investing for the future.

IMHO its one of the few things the chinese and cultures like them excell at. Its not about makeing a billion next month and selling the companies shell in 3 months time. Its about long term success and continued growth - dominance in a given market place. The government selling off most of the public sector was a big part of this down fall - rise in costs. Private companies need a lot more profit to do anything than a government body ever does. This bumps costs and it all has a knock on affect till a lot of things just are not competitive here.

Its like the current levels of taxation, It just makes it so the family can't afford to go out at the week end, the fuel for the car is too expensive, the new car is then also out of the available budget. Eventually it strangles spending by the common man and the local economy collapses.

Stephen I just don't know where you are going with your OP.

It certainly is true that the UK is no longer the industrial giant it once was but much the same could be said about the USA and several other countries. As the world becomes "smaller" the less the "distance" is between what was once dirt poor countries and wealthy ones.

Nothing lasts forever and former mighty empires are nothing but history today.

What do you suggest for example the UK does to get back into the game? Blaming politicians is too easy.

Gordon

I was in the UK for 3 weeks where of 2 of them was at a Production Manufacturer in Sheffield, it was a EU funded project with the goal of exchanging knowledge of manufacturing techniques. And I must say they surely needed it! Never have a though to meet so lacey workers. They where really nice guys but if you expect that you can just sit and let the machine run for 6 hours and just sit and drink tee and not do other things in the mean time then you are surely on the wrong way. Also they had the machines. They had the tools. But boy did they not have the knowledge to use them right. Also if you let engineers with no machine experience program your machines it is gonna go wrong in my opinion. After I sad down and talked to the programming engineer and showed him how the tools should be used and the proper use of techniques we cut the machining time down by 80% and the surface and tool life where greatly improved. What you need Is skilled workers. And if you keep as many other countries in Europe do putting your children thru collage and high education and not showing them that all type of industrial work is not a bad bad thing. then manufacturing in europe will see more and more jobs and manufacturing lost to asian, south American contrys.

Just my 2 cent.

We are still good at cars, and car parts.

Cars made in Britain | AA

Im sure I read that the UK gets a massive % of the European investment from the big 'overseas' names, due in part to our labour laws being more flexible than most of continental Europe.

Have a read up on where all the Indy cars are designed, and built !

Its a bit of a sickner that we have to buy power stations from the French etc. Im sure lots of the overseas sourcing ties in with European rules on competition / subsidies etc. I suspect that we in the UK 'play by the rules' more than some other European countries in this respect.

The Koreans are really, really, really good at building ships (watched a programme about the building of the 'triple E' cargo ship) I was gobsmacked at the whole project, and nearly dropped my beer when they said 'this is just the first of 20, due to be finished by....) - What we need to be doing is adding value to the 'basic' work like hulls with weapons systems, electronics etc. In the series on the building of the Triple E there was an episode devoted to the German designed, and manufactured propellers - now that was a gantry mill ! - we need to be targeting work like that, not laying down x thousand miles of weld.

Lots of the 'grass root' manufacturing in the UK that has survived the last few decades has become very efficient with automation. Robots doing the 'grunt' work, highly paid jobs for the humans sorting the robots out. - Government needs to encourage more of this. Often a conflict of interest, robot arm isn't going to pay monthly subs to UNITE......

Anyway, i'm rambling a bit, What im trying to say is I think the future for this country in manufacturing is not a few massive employers doing everything, but lots of small and medium, more dynamic firms, creating more value added. Its down to whoever is running the show to incentivise companies to do this with nurturing policies on taxation, planning etc.

Right - im off to the factory now (on a sunday ) - there are a couple of things I need to check on a project we are working on overhauling a forging press (that weighs a couple of hundred tons.) It needs to be a 'spot on' job so the customer, also in the UK, can integrate the robots into the cell without worrying about the mechanical condition of it !

Took them awhile, but Germany finally won WW2..... Just 70 years after we all thought they lost.....

Do not worry about making stuff, the UK has London, one of the three financial hubs of the world (the others being New York and Hong Kong)

Who needs manufacturing when you have finance...

RC99 said:

Took them awhile, but Germany finally won WW2..... Just 70 years after we all thought they lost.....

Do not worry about making stuff, the UK has London, one of the three financial hubs of the world (the others being New York and Hong Kong)

Who needs manufacturing when you have finance...

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Not so sure about that?

I dont see the suggestions from You ?

There are several countries in Europe doing quite well in manufacturing.
Scandinavian countries in general (Finland, Sweden), Switzerland, Spain, Germany.

All produce medium to high value goods, while paying people well to very well.

Over here in Spain, machinists are engineers first, and make a good wage by local standards.
No-one (mostly) tries to compete with chicom screw-manufacturers any more- silly to do so.

In scandinavia, machinists make around 5000€ a month - a very good wage by any standards.(Gross, with 40% income tax).

I suggest you should try educating people, investing in schools and universities, and stop trying to invest in "big projects".
No european country knows how to do big projects, and the disfunctional political climate is probably not helping.

Big projects are things where politicians can try to take credit - usually things like bridges, railroads, aerospace, shipbuilding.
Usually caracterised by cronyism, nepotism, bribery, influence peddling, inefficiency and general lack of pride, quality and competitiveness.

Otoh, where small(er) companies make quality products, they are often wildly succesful, pay people very well, and create employment.

Growing *this type* of manufacturing requres looking at a 5 year horizon, not next quarter or next election and supporting training, local investments, accountability and productivity.
Some examples of very succesful and very good products are;
Uk-Renishaw
Sweden-Sandvik
Finland-Kone (Elecvators, or Cranes in Kone Cranes)
German-Michael Decker

If the UK government, for example, set aside land for local shipbuilding and boatbuilding (tiny vertical industries) instead of trying to compete against panel beaters in a country with about 5x the cost of living, perhaps a positive results would happen ?
Certainly, the UK is full or people able to work (and wanting to) in the metalworking trades.
However, when it is preferred to scrap the industry, and set up another hotel or convention center, usually at a huge loss some years down the line (olympics, the millenium dome, warf projects, etc etc), why would anyone invest in the UK ?

I certainly would not. Would You ?

? What are you doing to help promote this ?

I am interested in, and have opinions on, many semi-political fields like industrial policies, insurance, local government, local emplyment, international trade, healthcare issues etc.

I dont try to tell our american friends who they should vote for, or how they should run their own healthcare.
I have some comments and observations, esp. re: international experieneces of which I have quite a lot, but try to stay neutral.

Likewise, I dont try to tell anyone in the UK who they should vote for - as I havent a clue.
Nevertheless, some consequences of short-sighted industrial policies are pretty obvious - and have pretty much had the same results everywhere.

Where the koreans, and now the chinese, invested in schools, trades, metalworking, wharves and harbours with the pretty obvious result they both built thriving industries in these fields, most european governments have miserably failed to do so.
In Finland, the world-famous, world-class, very profitable shipyards where first;
-stuffed full of political appointees (2000 out of 2500 workers. I was there on a visit). Around 1990ies.
-sold outside the country at a huge loss. Early 1992-94 or so.
-made a lof of money to the new owners More than cost of the yard, in net profit. In one year).
-and now will be scrapped. (Just announced closure of shipbuilding).

Finland, like sweden, and germany, and switzerland is one of the most skilled, capable, good (and expensive) mechnical engineering country in the world.
Smaller companies are very profitable, and pay peope very well (its the law, as well) with lots of "bennies".

competition

what i noticed about China competition in business

1) tool stores tend to be in the same area of town. thus somebody getting a bus or taxi ride to the area can walk from store to store. even large stores are often many small vendors in the same building. thus nobody can afford to sell much higher than the rest. if anything some stores sell at a loss to get rid of inventory before giving up on the business. many ma and pa businesses renting stores and equipment taking zero interest loans from relatives trying to succeed in very competitive businesses. i have seen many some small stores forming partnerships to buy in bulk at cheaper prices so they can sell at a higher profit. thus small and medium businesses are being forced to many times go out of business.
.
2) schools train by asking companies what they want new workers trained in. they spend far less on their schools and have students in larger class rooms with longer school days. the parents came be brutal in encouraging their children to be the best in school not just make a passing grade. often times this parental involvement is the most effective way that students are encouraged to learn. government there spend far less of welfare programs and have far more people working for the welfare money sweeping street, picking up garbage, working on farms, working in factories, etc. being on government welfare payments is so nasty that nobody would want to be on it. many would rather beg for money on the streets or work on farms where maybe they get paid more than just food and a unheated building to sleep at for the labor. by the way there is no such thing is a unwed mother on welfare having more than one child, forced abortions happen, the 2nd child is denied any government money like ability to go to school for free, and children spend all day in school/daycare while the mothers work. no one mother watching one child at home all day on government money and not working
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3) when the government does do is form partnerships with large multinational companies offering cheap land, cutting through the red tape of meeting rules and regulations and taking a 20% part of the business instead of taxes. they are interested in the company doing well so they get part of the profits not taxing the company til it is bankrupt. the partnerships bring in the new technology and training for the people where often the Chinese are doing easily the more modern cutting edge stuff vastly outpacing many other counties
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4) i have seen many modern factories being built and most old factories destroyed. it is human nature to try to make due with old machines with minor improvements. i have seen too many old companies close for example because the papermill making 40" wide paper could not compete with a new machine making 160" wide paper. often the small machines even if slightly more efficient could not compete with the much more massive machines. Steel mills are similar the new steel mills forced the older designed steel mills to close down. often the government is forcing the old factories to close and be modernized. they are not asking.
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5) pollution laws of the 1980 and 1990's forced many small foundries, electroplating, and electrical power plants to close. in the USA some companies buy castings already rough machined and just finish machine them. they have a hard time just buying the raw iron where the can buy a semi finished castings at a lower price from huge foundries buying metal in 1000 ton lots compared to 1 ton amounts and the foundries are located in smog filled countries with less pollution laws. the big Chinese cities are on average so filled with smog that visibility is less than 100 meters and i have seen the fog only go away when flying out of the area at least 200 or more kilometers away.
.
it is like the Olympics. competition is fierce. and the countries that win the gold medals often are just trying harder.

hanermo said:

In scandinavia, machinists make around 5000€ a month - a very good wage by any standards.(Gross, with 40% income tax).

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Never met any machinist over here making that much. A fairly good machinist who can set-up lathes and mills gets usually around 2500€/month. Some less and some more, though it is very rare to exceed 3000€/month without overtime. Might be true in Norway though, many go to work there for higher wages..

Ahem, Switzerland?

We don’t build our trains any more, no trams, no cars, only a few bicycles. The rest is imported, locomotives and train coaches from Canada, Germany, and other countries, tramway material from Germany, Poland, and others. Photo and movie cameras, that’s long gone. Optics? Most eyeglasses are made by one big enterprise. Instruments? Forget it.

I have a Schäublin 13 universal milling machine. Guess where I find accessories to it!

This country has also lost industries. We follow the money stream, excuse me, mainstream. White collars won over blue collars. Nobody wants to make her or his hands dirty.

I don't know; the boys from Top Gear seem to think there is quite a bit of manufacturing going on over there.

Top Gear Best Of British - YouTube

Well, in my opinion, the UK Government do not really care about manufacturing.

Before you even make 1 chip, the overheads for businesses in the UK are painful.

Step number one would be to do away with 'Business Rates' - a property tax, which you have to pay.

Step two is cultural - look at the heroes we present to children - mostly singers / dancers and performers.
Yes, I agree that to have talent in that area is admirable, and for some, lucrative, but our culture and media place them upon such very high pedestals.

Why not try to emphasize to the younger generations that men and women who actually make things and/or have ideas and enthusiasm in this area, are to be valued highly in society?

'Glamour' and showbiz seems more important to some politicians.

Are there any shops left in UK schools?

Bic small - start up businesses have not had to pay business rates for a few years now, its called rate relief.

That said around here in suffolk its finding highly skilled workers. All the more so with the number of companies that want to pay peanuts. In all honesty if you have the skills to programme a cnc, or tig weld - read and understand drawings, anything much more than be a MIG monkey. Chances are you have the skills to make more money doing something else. Its a sad basic fact.

You want a highly skilled work force, you need to pay good wages. To do that you need to be lean and mean with a good set-up and a real eye on keeping everything efficent. Most companies i see don't reinvest anything like what they need to to grow. Even thoes that do seam to do some realy back ass words approaches to simple problems.

BBC McLaren Factory Documentary Part 1 - YouTube

I'm pretty impressed with this example of British manufacturing!
Having seen, heard and worked on these cars, I've gotta say, "Well done."

JH-Q said:

Never met any machinist over here making that much. A fairly good machinist who can set-up lathes and mills gets usually around 2500€/month. Some less and some more, though it is very rare to exceed 3000€/month without overtime. Might be true in Norway though, many go to work there for higher wages..

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Originally Posted by hanermo View Post

In scandinavia, machinists make around 5000€ a month - a very good wage by any standards.(Gross, with 40% income tax).

Don't know about wages in Finland but here in Denmark hanermo is very close to the mark and I know several machinists that make good money.
Overtime is more the exception than the rule.

€1 = $1.35 and I remember when the ratio was the other way around

Gordon