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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    There is not one useful thing they've learned in the last 4 years since getting there!
    They are not allowed to do anything outside of their scope for any reason at any time!

    Bottom line is that they are both happy to be where they are, but they both know that if/when shit hits the fan they will both be far less employable than those in the "wild".
    Not my words, theirs.
    Again, you are blaming the union for what sounds like a shitty corporate environment. Ultimately it's P&W's responsibility to promote and maintain a healthy culture.

    Was the union a contributing factor? Maybe. Hard to say from here. But I can say that there are lots of poorly managed megacorps with toxic work environments - some are unionized, and some aren't.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Again, you are blaming the union for what sounds like a shitty corporate environment. Ultimately it's P&W's responsibility to promote and maintain a healthy culture.

    .
    It is the union's DEMAND !!! that CNC machinists are not allowed to do anything other than adjust offsets as-needed!
    They are not even allowed to stone down the machine table without a maintenance person present even if that is the cause of defective or non-conforming part!

    For fuck'sake, the Union does not allow the machinist to move the carts after a finished operation over to the next machine for the next operation!
    They have separate union people to do that!
    Fine, it keeps otherwise fodder material people gamefully employed, but it also cuts down on communication and exchange of ideas ( again, highly unsupported by the union ).

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    It is the union's DEMAND !!! that CNC machinists are not allowed to do anything other than adjust offsets as-needed!
    Sorry, I didn't realize you were privy to the inside negotiations at P&W. However, I do realize that you're just going to cling to that anecdote and use it to make blanket statements about all union workforces.

    Clearly you're not open to having an exchange of ideas on the topic. I'll back off.

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    Union demarcation disputes ....20 week strike because an overhead crane operator moved a load that was reserved for forklift operator.......Recall when I started in a union shop,the rep came straight over and told me I was working too fast......shortly after the whole operation was strikebound due to an internal powerstruggle in the union....bashings daily of those foolish enough to oppose the party ticket.....There is zero democracy in a union ...step out of line,you re gone.

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  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    However, I do realize that you're just going to cling to that anecdote and use it to make blanket statements about all union workforces.

    Clearly you're not open to having an exchange of ideas on the topic. I'll back off.
    My statement was not one single bit about the union workforces.
    Rather, it was ALL about the typical existence and goal of The Union. That is The Union as an Entity

    IOW, I am fully in agreement with this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    Unions do nothing for the exceptional. They only support the weak. Personal assessment drives an individual's opinion.
    And you are correct, I am not open to having an exchange of ideas about the contrary.

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  11. #46
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    Default Putting an exclamation mark on the cost to Boeing

    Just how much has Boeing screwed itself by making terrible decisions in the quest for short term profits?

    Answer: A lot. Like, the biggest corporate loss ever?

    Boeing's 737 Max debacle could be the most expensive corporate blunder ever - CNN

    It just points out how stupid and counterproductive (literally) our corporate boardrooms are, where the goal is to rape the future in exchange for a little more money in the pockets of the execs today.

    We are idiots to allow this to happen - it hurts workers, hurts customers, hurts the future of the company, etc.

    It's past time to make execs responsible when their bad or corrupt decisions cost lives or the future of the company. They want the big bucks? Then take the hit when their scams fail.

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  13. #47
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    Wasn't that alleged to be the reason that they got paid the big bucks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Again, please be careful with the anecdotes. I spent a lot of time at Boeing; first as an hourly worker, then in a salary position (both union BTW). I knew a lot of really talented people who worked full careers there, and had never been laid off. However, some of the worst performers seemed to get laid off every 4 or 5 years. Which group do you imagine were the lot seeking to go to work at your shop for a massive wage cut?
    I laid no personal blame at the feet of how the guys didn't have a complete set of skills. From what the guys told me it was the result of the union shop way of running the show. Quite possibly not all Boeing plants run the same, these guys all came from Long Beach Ca. It wasn't a typical lay-off, defense industry cut backs of the late 80's cut a lot of guys loose. From talking to all the guys I gave department tours to the longer someone worked at Boeing the more they stagnated. The two guys we hired had about 30 years experience and fortunately less than half was at Boeing. I would not consider the guys low performers, just a product of their environment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Quite possibly not all Boeing plants run the same, these guys all came from Long Beach Ca.
    I'm confused. Long Beach was McDonnell-Douglas. Boeing was in Warshington. They closed Mickey D, I went to the auction, and it was not Boeing at that time.

    So ... umm ? Was there a Boeing plant in LA then also ?

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    I think it's time for Boing to be broken up.
    Military should be a separate company.

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  18. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I'm confused. Long Beach was McDonnell-Douglas. Boeing was in Warshington. They closed Mickey D, I went to the auction, and it was not Boeing at that time.

    So ... umm ? Was there a Boeing plant in LA then also ?
    Boeing was in multiple places in Southern California, now since closed. Douglas merged with Boeing in the late 90's that plant in Long Beach was closed in the mid 2010's. Boeing also bought Rockwell International locations including one in Anaheim that was originally the Autonetics division of North American Aviation, that was closed mid 2000's. At one time Boeing had a pretty big footprint in SoCal through acquisitions. I think it is now down to a skeleton crew at a facility in Huntington Beach, if that is still there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    I think it is now down to a skeleton crew at a facility in Huntington Beach, if that is still there.
    Given how Boeing has buggered things up, those might be actual skeletons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Given how Boeing has buggered things up, those might be actual skeletons.
    My step-dad and grandmother both worked at Autonetics, which became Rockwell which became Boeing in Anaheim, which is in SoCal. At it's height that plant employed 30,000 people. Boeing managed to run it into the ground and close it in less than 10 years. My step-dad took an early retirement a couple years before the Boeing purchase in the mid 90's. He was close friends with many that stayed on as Boeing employees as fellow members of management, most hated it and were just hanging on till they could afford to comfortably retire. These are the same people who had long careers at Autonetics and then Rockwell and enjoyed coming to work. Boeing stamp on SoCal was not a good one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Let me just say too, I am SO damn tired of all of the union hate. Anyone who applies binary thinking on this subject is showing a ton of ignorance.

    It seems like every couple of weeks there is a thread complaining about the lack of new talent in this industry. Then a week later there will be another thread bashing on unions.

    Have you ever noticed that there are NEVER shortages of young people lining up around the block to get into the really good union trades? Firefighters, linemen, heavy equipment operators - those trades get their pick of talent from the new crop. Meanwhile wages in manufacturing suck, but a bunch of us are happy to be at the bottom of the wage pool, as long as we think we are doing better than the guy working next to us. This "me first" thinking is not only disgusting, but it's against our own best interests.

    There are a couple of big union shops around here that (as Dualkit said) pay 50% more than everybody else. If those places weren't around driving competition for the most talented people, wages at the top would drop. You don't get top programmers making 150k/yr if all of the top machinists are making 50k/yr.
    Yes, and coming from a Democratic Family-with strong Union Background-dating to the 1920's-Montana Railroad strikes and a Monther and a Retired Teacher Sister-who would never, ever think of or consider voting for anyone else but a Democratic, and of course all you need to do is take a look at the stellar job the Union Based Teachers have done for this Country's Children-I haven't looked-but I assume-our kids rank world wide in the top 10 % in Science and English Scores-if not-the answer could only be lack of Money...for their Unions and their stellar performance...

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    I think it's time for Boing to be broken up.
    Military should be a separate company.
    Was that intentional? LMAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Boeing was in multiple places in Southern California, now since closed. Douglas merged with Boeing in the late 90's that plant in Long Beach was closed in the mid 2010's.
    So I went to this auction, Los Angeles, five days, that was a bunch of huge buildings with bus stops inside for getting around, where my understanding was that they built DC-10's and MD-90's and all that kinda airborne stuff. At that time, this was the end for McDonnell-Douglas.

    Concurrently, my sister bought a house in Winnetka for unbelievably cheap, corner lot, grown-in shady neighborhood, quiet, upscale, with a pool, because dozens of thousands of middle-class McD-D engineers were being dumped and all these great houses were a glut on the market. This was way before 2002, 'cuz I still lived in Californee and I think Turkey Night was at Ventura that year.

    So what was that all about ?

    btw, Mill .... 737 Max just got recertified. Not that it matters right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    btw, Mill .... 737 Max just got recertified. Not that it matters right now
    https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=93206

    At least they'll have the time for the retrofits and training ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    I think it's time for Boing to be broken up.
    Military should be a separate company.
    The whole point of the merger was to keep Boeing afloat in times like this. Without the military side of the house paying the bills right now the company would be looking at bankruptcy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar36 View Post
    The whole point of the merger was to keep Boeing afloat in times like this. Without the military side of the house paying the bills right now the company would be looking at bankruptcy.
    Yup, and Boing uses the Military side of things (including ex generals hired on as "consultants")
    to continue bending the constitution to their will. They would have never gotten this deep & far
    into trouble (on the commercial side) if they didn't have the Military side to use for threats.

    Time to break up the "Military & industrial complex" eh ?

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    So are your chances of dying better with COVID or being a passenger in a Boeing lawn dart?

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