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  1. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    Much to late,it has already happened.
    Dunno about YOUR head, but one thing is clear by this late date:

    Blighty has been f**ked-over, regardless it was the EU's doin' - or self-inflicted.

    MP-wanker class REALLY ought to be running on proof as to whom can do the best post-disaster salvage job,

    - leave OR remain.

    There ain't no great deals to be had any longer.

    - leave OR remain.

    They've been pissed away arredy.


  2. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    You really live in an alternate reality Miguel. This is all a matter of public record.

    When Bush took office he had a "balanced budget". I put that in quotes because it's not really true, but it is how the budget works.

    We had the 9/11 attacks, we had a recession, Bush put through the tax cuts. The "balanced budget" turned into deficits. They were about $125-$150 Billion a year. By 2006, the economy was doing well, the deficits were on a downward path. The GOP controlled Congress was passing budgets and appropriation bills under regular order- committee, full house, conference, etc.

    In the 2006 election the dems took both houses of Congress. This was the end of regular order. So in 2007, they passed a giant omnibus bill at the end of the session, holding Defense hostage as per their normal tactic. The deficit exploded from $161 Billion in 2007 to $458 Billion in 2008.

    Then we had the financial crash. Bush signed the TARP, which was $700 Billion. He spent $350 Billion of that to bail out the banks and Fanny/Freddie, and the other half was left for Obama.

    Obama spent the other half on the auto bailout, cash for clunkers, and a few other things. This was a direct violation of the TARP, which required the money to go only to the financial system- and when it was paid back, the money was to be returned to the treasury.

    The money that was given to the banks was pretty much all repaid in 2009 or 2010. The bankers didn't like the idea of the Gov't limiting their bonuses.

    2009 spending:

    In addition to the $350 Billion in TARP money.

    Obama was sworn in on January 20, 2009. On February 17, he signed into law the stimulus act. This bill was written before Obama even took office. $831 Billion, borrowed from China. Obama gave China direct access to the Treasury at this time- not even the Fed can buy treasury bonds direct- they have to go through a primary dealer. There are 2 primary dealers- JPMC and BONY-Mellon. These are the only entities authorized to purchase bonds from the US Treasury.

    Ten days later, Obama submitted his first budget. The House took that budget and added an across the board 12% increase on everything except defense. They had a super majority in the Senate, so it all went through.

    That was the last time the democrats did a budget or appropriations bill. It was CR's from then on.

    Democrats had checked the boxes for spending and the economy in Obama's first month. They moved on the health care and the rest of the year was spent on Obamacare.

    It was CR's every year after that. No budgets, no appropriations bills until the 2012 Ryan-Murray budget for FY13.

    The recession ended in June 2009. Obama's tax, spend and regulate everything policies were the reason the recovery was so awful for everyone. We didn't even return to the pre-recession employment level until 2011. I;m not talking about the unemployment rate- I'm talking about total employment- how long it took to gain back the jobs lost in the recession.

    2016 GDP growth was 1.5%. That is hardly a "record setting" growth trend. Stop playing semantics. Yes, the deficit went down under Obama, because his first year's deficit was $1.4 TRILLION.

    $350 Billion of that you can attribute to Bush, the rest is Obama's.
    Do you not remember the bush tax cuts were projected to torpedo the debt.
    They were passed through reconciliation and were supposed to expire because of that.
    A decade later the fight to continue that debt shut the government down.
    The result was CR and the sequester, the sequester stayed in place until trump cut taxes and increased spending.

    Fact is taxes actually fell in the Obama admin, with payroll tax cuts.
    Except for the stimulus spending remained fairly steady.

    If you look at it honestly, the recovery is one of the best possible outcomes.
    Steady, broad based growth...the only thing that would have improved the outcome was blockaded. Which would have been increased investment in manufacturing.

  3. #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Fact is taxes actually fell in the Obama admin, with payroll tax cuts.
    Except for the stimulus spending remained fairly steady.
    If you discount the fact that Bernanke printed up over a trillion dollars which he handed to Wall Street, which came directly out of our assets and savings, sure. Gee thanks Mr Obama. Smiling faces, sometimes, dey don't tell da truth ...

    If you look at it honestly, the recovery is one of the best possible outcomes.
    If all of Wall Sreet had gone to prison for the rest of their lives, the vampire squid had been publicly executed in the persons of Lloyd and Jamie, investment banking had paid for its sins, Larry Summers and Alan Greenspan had been pilloried for a month, and maybe the US started its own central bank, maybe.

    But as it is, Wall Street ripped us all off to the tiune of trillions, Bush and his cronies walked away from the biggest pack of lies since Beelzebub walked the earth, and we all took the big ten inch right up the ass.

    You guys snivel about Trump's "lies" but forget entirely the Weapons of Mass Destruction, the Iraqi's bayonnetting babies in their incubators, Abu Ghraib and the torture that thse sons of bitches tried to justify plus all the other total shit that spewed out the mouth of the Bush administration ? The shit that killed hundreds of thousands of people who were minding their own business in their own country ?

    Want to see a do-gooder poster child ? Look up "hypocrisy" in the encyclopaedia. Some of our posters have their portraits there.

    Steady, broad based growth...
    We went to the moon in 1969. There have been a lot of unmanned space missions as well. There are photos of the earth. In case it missed your notice, the planet is finite.

    WE DON'T NEED GROWTH. GROWTH IS GOING TO DESTROY THE PLANET WHERE WE LIVE. IF WE DON'T GROW A BRAIN, WE ARE DEAD.

  4. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    If you discount the fact that Bernanke printed up over a trillion dollars which he handed to Wall Street, which came directly out of our assets and savings, sure. Gee thanks Mr Obama. Smiling faces, sometimes, dey don't tell da truth ...


    If all of Wall Sreet had gone to prison for the rest of their lives, the vampire squid had been publicly executed in the persons of Lloyd and Jamie, investment banking had paid for its sins, Larry Summers and Alan Greenspan had been pilloried for a month, and maybe the US started its own central bank, maybe.

    But as it is, Wall Street ripped us all off to the tiune of trillions, Bush and his cronies walked away from the biggest pack of lies since Beelzebub walked the earth, and we all took the big ten inch right up the ass.

    You guys snivel about Trump's "lies" but forget entirely the Weapons of Mass Destruction, the Iraqi's bayonnetting babies in their incubators, Abu Ghraib and the torture that thse sons of bitches tried to justify plus all the other total shit that spewed out the mouth of the Bush administration ? The shit that killed hundreds of thousands of people who were minding their own business in their own country ?

    Want to see a do-gooder poster child ? Look up "hypocrisy" in the encyclopaedia. Some of our posters have their portraits there.


    We went to the moon in 1969. There have been a lot of unmanned space missions as well. There are photos of the earth. In case it missed your notice, the planet is finite.

    WE DON'T NEED GROWTH. GROWTH IS GOING TO DESTROY THE PLANET WHERE WE LIVE. IF WE DON'T GROW A BRAIN, WE ARE DEAD.
    Some people begin with a brain like that already.

  5. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Some people begin with a brain like that already.
    You're right. Some people do.

    But the ones peddling this "growth" crap are pushing us as fast as possible to extinction. They are imbeciles and we should lock them up.

  6. #946
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    The population growth replacing the birth rate is considered important. They say they want to maintain wealth in prosperous countries by maintaining the population. Maybe they think increased production of work will mean advancement perhaps. Anyway the thing is that immigrant flow has been touted to replace the low birth rate yet those workers may not rise to a level where it contributes to the economy, tax base, and extending to SS and Medicare.

    Then once the second or third third generation blends into American society through immersion and inclusion they will match the low birth rates.

    Probably this kind of thinking has some valid views and views and perhaps some not. I do think here in the US the way things are going is that for some time now having family’s has been structurally discouraged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Some people begin with a brain like that already.
    Not hard to ID which, either.

    Take the enduringly repeated lie over so-called "non-existent" Iraqi WMD.

    If they didn't f****g "exist" why did it take so damned much dangerous and DOCUMENTED labour of experts (some of whom had health ruint or even died at it) to dispose of so many tons of the buggers?

    Spout that lie, and all-else out of the same mouth or keyboard is just routed off to the dustbin on general principle.

    Which is unfortunate. Because there MIGHT have been a grain of truth in the rest of it had credibility not been suicidally pissed-away.

  8. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Not hard to ID which, either.

    Take the enduringly repeated lie over so-called "non-existent" Iraqi WMD.

    If they didn't f****g "exist" why did it take so damned much dangerous and DOCUMENTED labour of experts (some of whom had health ruint or even died at it) to dispose of so many tons of the buggers?
    They existed, all right. Saddam used them on the Iranians and the Kurds.

    Whether they still existed at the point of the 2nd Iraqi war - shrug. Dunno.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    They existed, all right. Saddam used them on the Iranians and the Kurds.

    Whether they still existed at the point of the 2nd Iraqi war - shrug. Dunno.

    PDW
    Yep, the USA helped him make them.
    Later, nope.
    Bubba would have gladly put them on parade if he’d found them.
    The closest they found was a defunct centrifuge buried in som poor guys garden.

  10. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    WE DON'T NEED GROWTH. GROWTH IS GOING TO DESTROY THE PLANET WHERE WE LIVE..
    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein;3382286

    [B
    WE DON'T NEED GROWTH. GROWTH IS GOING TO DESTROY THE PLANET WHERE WE LIVE..[/B]
    Agreed. It's already degrading lifestyle. Some seem to respond with strokes of genius like "who says the planet can't take more people". Wrong question. Instead ask would the quality of life be better or worse with more people. There is not one thing better about Toronto now than 25 years ago, yet its largely dysfunction because of growth.

    Is there anything about where you live that is better because of more and more and more people? A few New Yorks or Londons are great for a vacation, as for the rest it....less is more

    Why do we have the endless assertions that pop growth is good? That's simple. The big lie. Its the easy way for politicians to balance budgets and businesses to grow so they tell you its a must. BS. I'm pro business, but that doesn't mean we should spend our future for maintain earnings growth. Imagine how much quality and service would improve if they had to duke it out for the same market, rather than crank out crap to satisfy the rising tide. Capitalism is without a doubt the best economic system, but it has to exist within the rules society sets.....one of which should be zero or negative pop growth.

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  12. #951
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    I would be interested to hear who, exactly, is in favor of population growth at this point. A quick google comes up with one Indie fimmaker, and a wacky Swedish professor. Cant find any reputable agency, expert, organisation, or news agency in the USA advocating unrestrained world wide growth. A few economists say we need, like Japan and Italy need, younger employees to pay taxes and replace retirees- but thats far from advocating unrestrained growth, even in the USA.

    Its a fact that, as incomes rise, population growth slows down.
    Foreign aid to developed countries actually decreases immigrants to the USA, assuming its targeted towards income growth abroad.

  13. #952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Agreed. It's already degrading lifestyle. Some seem to respond with strokes of genius like "who says the planet can't take more people". Wrong question. Instead ask would the quality of life be better or worse with more people. There is not one thing better about Toronto now than 25 years ago, yet its largely dysfunction because of growth.
    Same with Sydney here. I mostly live in a different State but spend 2-3 months a year in Sydney. Have done this for the last 20 years. The absences let me see the changes more clearly than people living here all the time.

    It hasn't improved, in fact it's more crowded and painful because the infrastructure was inadequate 20 years ago. Now it's a lot worse.

    Put me firmly in the NIMBY camp these days.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    I would be interested to hear who, exactly, is in favor of population growth at this point.
    I gave the answer, politicians and business. I hope you right, no citizen wants it.....but if so they bloody well need to tell their politicians that!

    you're right there isn't really natural domestic growth, yet pop growth in the developed world is easily achieved by tax incentives and immigration, so should just as easy to stop and reverse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Same with Sydney here. I mostly live in a different State but spend 2-3 months a year in Sydney. Have done this for the last 20 years. The absences let me see the changes more clearly than people living here all the time.

    It hasn't improved, in fact it's more crowded and painful because the infrastructure was inadequate 20 years ago. Now it's a lot worse.

    Put me firmly in the NIMBY camp these days.

    PDW
    The first nimby on record are the native Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    They existed, all right. Saddam used them on the Iranians and the Kurds.

    Whether they still existed at the point of the 2nd Iraqi war - shrug. Dunno.

    PDW
    They didn't find the atom bomb work they were looking for. Nor much as to the more serious side of biological warfare s**t.

    They found many tens of TONS of chemical artillery shells, various legacy loads from War One tech, War Two tech, and later. Mustard gas, phosgene, Sarin, other organophosphate "nerve" agent etc. ISTR some of what they used on the Kurds was made from fungoides toxins?

    Many of the stores of those projectiles had been bombed or shelled and/or were degraded and leaking from age and neglect. Disposal techs got seriously ill. At least one died, others had their lives messed up and/or shortened.

    So legally and pragmatically, "WMD" they surely were!

    Properly so classified by the UN teams as did the disposal work and filed the reports, BTW. Not by a Bush Administration Department of pulp fiction.

    So what went wrong?

    Saddam's henchmen didn't know what was where, nor the totality of what they still had.

    MOST of this s**t had indeed come from the earlier war. It just had not gone away.

    Stockpiles were all over the place. Many had been left around or kicked-around until accountability and records (if even there had ever BEEN any) were lost. The UN's reports were flawed and incomplete as well.

    Handling became hazardous all over again. It probably STILL IS, yet-today, over some of it still missing:

    Update Report No. 10: Iraq (UNMOVIC) : Update Report : Security Council Report

    Comprehensive Report of the Special Advisor to the DCI on Iraq's WMD — Central Intelligence Agency

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  19. #956
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Take the enduringly repeated lie over so-called "non-existent" Iraqi WMD.
    Cool, Condoleeza is posting now ... if this were a magic show, we'd be looking for where he hid the nine of spades while the mark gaped in wonder.

    Bush claimed Iraq was building nukular weapons. "Yellow cake from Africa, we have the proof ! Aluminum tubes that are obviously meant for enriching uranium ! That's all that aluminum tubing is good for !"

    As machinists, I can't believe everyone here didn't laugh their ass off at that one.

    Stupid lies. Sure, Iraq had a bunch of old crap lying around, just like many countries do, including the US. That was not what we were told and that's no justification for invading a foreign country.

    It was all lies and this garbage is just "oh look ! a squirrel !"

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Cool, Condoleeza is posting now ... if this were a magic show, we'd be looking for where he hid the nine of spades while the mark gaped in wonder.

    Bush claimed Iraq was building nukular weapons. "Yellow cake from Africa, we have the proof ! Aluminum tubes that are obviously meant for enriching uranium ! That's all that aluminum tubing is good for !"

    As machinists, I can't believe everyone here didn't laugh their ass off at that one.

    Stupid lies. Sure, Iraq had a bunch of old crap lying around, just like many countries do, including the US. That was not what we were told and that's no justification for invading a foreign country.

    It was all lies and this garbage is just "oh look ! a squirrel !"
    Weapons of mass destruction incorporated chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

    Hussein both had & used chemical weapons.

    Hence Hussein had weapons of mass destruction by definition.

    You want to argue about nukes, knock yourself out. You want to argue that war was run under false pretenses, ditto. No argument from me.

    Just don't air-brush out or revise history. He should have been hanged or shot for using chemical weapons, full stop.

    PDW

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  22. #958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    The first nimby on record are the native Americans.
    Bullshit. Complete bullshit.

    Try reading some history.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    He should have been hanged..
    Saddam? ISTR he WAS.

    Miguel? Not yet. We need the eggs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Same with Sydney here. I mostly live in a different State but spend 2-3 months a year in Sydney. Have done this for the last 20 years. The absences let me see the changes more clearly than people living here all the time.

    It hasn't improved, in fact it's more crowded and painful because the infrastructure was inadequate 20 years ago. Now it's a lot worse.

    Put me firmly in the NIMBY camp these days.

    PDW
    Exactly the same with my old town in the south of England.
    And now my parents can't get to see a doctors appointment in less than 8 weeks...


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