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  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Cease with the personal insults it does not generate any interest from me. Tariffs and trade are interesting.
    Things are about to get much more interesting, China just devalued their currency. The trade war IS ON

    China also just killed ANY ag purchases Trump beg them to buy at the G20.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    A distinction without a difference.
    But there IS. Still-yet. The oldest records we know of for the "unlimited" form of joint stock company date from Soong Dynasty, China, well over a thousand years ago. They may not have been even close to being the first. Records are scant.

    The newest depends on how fast you are able to get yer Arse to London, meet with my novations guru, or come to the USA, and register one.

    IOW they DO still exist. Yet today. In modern times.

    Not to mention that sole proprietorships and partnership are still as likely to be UNlimited as Limited by headcount, if less-so by valuation.

    The feudal Kings and emperors of times gone by AKA "Government", didn't have a socialist bone in their body, even during rough and kinky sex. Nor, for that matter, was "the Church" (pick a flavour) much of anything less than a feudal hierarchy, public poverty posturing and protestations poorly presented or well.

    Company grants and charters, patents & such every one, were each just one more means of extracting fees, rents, percentages, and other shares of - dare we say it? LOOT!

    Fast-forward to next week, it remains how well or poorly these vehicles are held TO their rules rather than under what form the rules were chosen as / have morphed into.

    Bluntly, a scoundrel is still a scoundrel and corporate forms are agnostic.

  3. #1103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in SoCal View Post
    Things are about to get much more interesting, China just devalued their currency. The trade war IS ON

    China also just killed ANY ag purchases Trump beg them to buy at the G20.

    Steve
    This is a double edged sword. This also means that all of the raw materials and goods that they import are going to cost more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    This is a double edged sword. This also means that all of the raw materials and goods that they import are going to cost more.
    Well they do have that 12-20 million? BBl of Iranian oil in bond, rumor has it they bought it or the options on it really cheap

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in SoCal View Post
    Things are about to get much more interesting, China just devalued their currency.
    No. Not yet, they have not.

    The global finance community just devalued it FOR them, off the back of the expected effects of 1 September US tariff increase and anticipated knock-on effects.

    Aside from the knee-jerk pledge to SUPPORT the Renminbi - AKA RESIST further decline - it remains to be seen what the Chinese will choose to do about that.

    They are Hell-for-stout on internal consulting and consensus building Xi first-among-alleged-equals or no. So that may be another day or three, coming. DJT caught them off-base. All part of what we pay him for.
    Last edited by thermite; 08-05-2019 at 11:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    This is a double edged sword. This also means that all of the raw materials and goods that they import are going to cost more.
    ..and that an already problematic debt load becomes an even greater challenge...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Tariffs and trade are interesting.
    I agree with 50% of that. Tariffs are a PITA, trade is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in SoCal View Post
    Things are about to get much more interesting, China just devalued their currency. The trade war IS ON

    China also just killed ANY ag purchases Trump beg them to buy at the G20.

    Steve
    XE: USD / CNY Currency Chart. US Dollar to Chinese Yuan Renminbi Rates

    Nobody wins but who'll lose most?

  9. #1109
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    But there IS. Still-yet. The oldest records we know of for the "unlimited" form of joint stock company date from Soong Dynasty, China, well over a thousand years ago. They may not have been even close to being the first. Records are scant.

    The newest depends on how fast you are able to get yer Arse to London, meet with my novations guru, or come to the USA, and register one.

    IOW they DO still exist. Yet today. In modern times.

    Not to mention that sole proprietorships and partnership are still as likely to be UNlimited as Limited by headcount, if less-so by valuation.

    The feudal Kings and emperors of times gone by AKA "Government", didn't have a socialist bone in their body, even during rough and kinky sex. Nor, for that matter, was "the Church" (pick a flavour) much of anything less than a feudal hierarchy, public poverty posturing and protestations poorly presented or well.

    Company grants and charters, patents & such every one, were each just one more means of extracting fees, rents, percentages, and other shares of - dare we say it? LOOT!

    Fast-forward to next week, it remains how well or poorly these vehicles are held TO their rules rather than under what form the rules were chosen as / have morphed into.

    Bluntly, a scoundrel is still a scoundrel and corporate forms are agnostic.
    Yes, yes, all true - but the fact remains that the *limited liability* joint stock company is a very recent invention of Government. There were (are) good reasons for it, too - BUT it's a Govt invention of recent vintage.

    So spinit et al who don't like socialism should be restricted to the old form capitalist unlimited liability stock companies.

    But - note that they want nothing at all to do with any such idea. Indeed, most of them, spinit included, don't even realise the history involved.

    That's the funny part. They're fully supportive of Govt legislation that supports what they want, while decrying everything else as 'socialist'.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Yes, yes, all true - but the fact remains that the *limited liability* joint stock company is a very recent invention of Government. There were (are) good reasons for it, too - BUT it's a Govt invention of recent vintage.
    "Limited" liability IS "fairly recent" rather than "very recent", 1811, New York, my "reasonably local" patch.

    But only because we chickn's are bound-up in and overly focused on English Law (1855, London) and our each and several derivatives of it.

    The Nederlands, Lombards, and Romans preceded our structures, and a "Sociedad Anonima" was usually de-facto "limited" as to liability, if only because it was intentionally made rather more difficult than not to FIND those behind their veil.

    And... you are still nattering over FORM rather than the reality. Which is out of character, is it not?

    IF, AS, and WHEN oversight and enforcement is worth a damn.., and NOT otherwise where it fails .. EITHER structure, all OTHER structures, or NO structure may have its veil or secrecy of some other kind (mafia's omerta, drug "lord" terror.. wotever...) pierced or otherwise overcome or gotten end-run around the backside of.

    - Where a "limited liability" form had used Delaware's provision to not HAVE Officers' or Directors at all, but rather be operated by "managing stockholders", it would probably be a slam-dunk that any illegal activity certainly had been actioned or sanctioned by the stockholders, directly. There ain't anyone else in the room.

    Roll uphill to the size of Exxon-Mobil and its myriad stockholders, many of them robot pension fund traders, and it almost certainly cannot be the stockholders who might do the dirty- It WILL be truant Officers and Directors.

    Matters not the "limited" nature as a barrier, any more than secrecy can forever protect organized crime, wherever based. "El Chapo" wasn't an easy catch, but down he eventually went.

    So long as the legal mechanism to pierce that veil or hold citizens to the laws of the land are actually UTILIZED, a society has the miscreant by the ass - their hearts, minds, and illicit fortunes will follow.

    ELSE NOT

    A society allows their greedy prosecutors to eat their "very special pig" one slice of plea-bargained, profitably FINED, no jail-time involved illegality at a time? It will but grow faster than it is consumed.

    As it has done.

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    If all this tariff nonsense was just between the USA (and it's more Trump than the USA) and whoever I wouldn't give a damn.

    The problem is that it does affect many countries and no one can be sure what'll be tweeted tomorrow.

    Who is supposed to give Trump advice on trade and does he listen to that advice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Who is supposed to give Trump advice on trade and does he listen to that advice?
    His econ advisor (a talking head, not really an economist) was a vocal and staunch free trade advocate....until he got touched. And that in a nut shell is the entirety of the problem.

    Despite access to you tube and a billion political sites with their overt or hidden agendas etc we should place greater credence with and listen to experts. The world is too complex for any of us to know it all (notwithstanding the valiant attempts made here) - for any thinking person I believe this is obvious. It's a problem for the species, but leaders you'd hope would know better. Yet a megalomaniac isn't going to do that, listen to experts, is he? Its not hard to make some dark comparisons to other leaders who just "fire" or otherwise get rid of whoever disagrees with them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Yet a megalomaniac isn't going to do that, listen to experts, is he?
    OK. You may have an answer not yet considered. So I'll ask:

    Just what SHOULD be done with a megalomaniac who has no klew about the issues, won't listen to experts, doesn't want to take the time nor make the effort to improve that perhaps because his personal economic well-being is very distant and well-insulated from the effects of them, but uses the circumstance as an excuse to denigrate a decision-maker who DOES know what is involved, and who HAS taken the proper course of action out of the available choices, as is in his job description.
    .
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    Time's up?
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    Invading Canada and plopping a dunce cap atop yer head is probably not worth the strain on international relations, so ...here's a loonie, kid. Go buy yerself a fresh stick of bubble gum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    OK. You may have an answer not yet considdred. So I'll ask:

    Just what SHOULD be done with a megalomaniac who has no klew about the issues, won't listen to experts, doesn't want to take the time nor make the effort to improve that perhaps because his personal economic well-being is very distant and well-insulated from the effects of them, but uses the circumstance as an excuse to denigrate a decision-maker who DOES know what is involved, and who HAS taken the proper course of action out of the available choices ,as is in his job description.








    Invading Canada and plopping a dunce cap atop yer head is probably not worth the strain on international relations, so ...here's a loonie, kid. Go buy yerself a stick of bubble gum work?
    You managed to conjure enough literacy to convey an insult, good for you. Another productive day in Bill's world.

    Do you not think Trump is a megalomaniac?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    You managed to conjure enough literacy to convey an insult, good for you. Another productive day in Bill's world.

    Do you not think Trump is a megalomaniac?
    i don't really have to CARE if the sonovabich is or is not.

    As with Lincoln being told his most effective General - Grant - had a Whiskey problem:

    "Find out what brand he drinks and send a case to all my OTHER Generals."

    Just as long as DJT keeps on being the most EFFECTIVE President we have had since Eisenhower, if not better yet, for MY country?

    He gets my vote, next go.

    Other jurisdictions are free to choose their own leaders, just as we chose DJT.

    I'm not fussed about your one much. Your joy or pain, not mine.


    Whether I like DJT or his methods, then, now, or never, they are getting a hard job DONE and done very damned well, whole tribes and nations of the damndest of self-important but USELESS nattering snowflake fools in hard opposition notwithstanding.

    Sure have enough surplus of those socialist-looter "OPM is free" idjuts, lower 48. No need to import more of 'em from Canada.

    Wait one ...NAFTA replacement goes live, can we EXPORT some to yah?

    Reliable votes for Socialism, I'd guess. Secondary Win-Win, it mought raise the average IQ, both sides of the border as well?

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    When the Tiananmen Square like event happens in Hong Kong. Would the US and countries around the world just give a strong statement against the killings or would all trade stop with the PRC?

    India revoked the special status of Kashmir this morning and took control over the state. We’re not hearing anything from the WH. It won’t be long before Beijing takes notice of this and goes after HK or Taiwan (HK first because they’re unarmed).

    My money says the US,CA,UK & AU will raise tariffs to 25% and call it a day. The rest of the world will give a “strong statement” of dissatisfaction and in a few months, it will be business as usual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    When the Tiananmen Square like event happens in Hong Kong. Would the US and countries around the world just give a strong statement against the killings or would all trade stop with the PRC?

    India revoked the special status of Kashmir this morning and took control over the state. We’re not hearing anything from the WH. It won’t be long before Beijing takes notice of this and goes after HK or Taiwan (HK first because they’re unarmed).

    My money says the US,CA,UK & AU will raise tariffs to 25% and call it a day. The rest of the world will give a “strong statement” of dissatisfaction and in a few months, it will be business as usual.
    Good question. I think China is perfectly capable of putting down the protests in a violent manner. Taiwan would be a major undertaking which may not be worth breaking Taiwan. Destroying Taiwan is not as smart as making concessions that Taiwan would feel comfortable reunifying. That is hard to believe it would happen quickly because of the military threat of invasion and enmity China has shown. That kind of attitude is not a comfort to reunification for Taiwan.

    If military intervention happened in either case the US and the world would have to express alarm and in the case of Taiwan there could very likely be support militarily from the US.

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    The USA can’t go belly up because China and India can produce for such low prices. The USA can’t survive with 15+% unemployment / less than 5% is best.
    Many other countries are aided with a value added tax so make tax revenues from domestic and foreign manufacturing.
    With the likes of Amazon paying no tax one can see that the USA tax system is crap.
    Likely a 2% tax on all imports and a 2% tax on US manufacturing gross sales would work. But likely never to happen.
    Still the USA is great and I would not trade places for most other countries.

    Agree sticking out our USA neck on every world problem is often questionable. And China likely to crack-down hard on whet they think are problem people. And we are likely to stick our neck out with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Who "rules" the USA?
    The US is ruled by a system of checks and balances. Large corporations write the checks and everything balances in their favor.

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    Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Who "rules" the USA?

    Very often misled voters, led by fake news, students that never had to worry about real life, movie stars and what the latest movie seems to suggest, special interest that put personal interest ahead of sensible.

    History is a good teacher but that is so old fashioned and boring…


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