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  1. #1301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    It was only a building that was damaged. Only one person injured. We're waiting now for a who and why.

    I wonder if whoever was responsible thought about that it'll take tax money to repair?

    One injured after blast hits Danish Tax Agency - The Local
    Good to hear people are OK (mostly).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    step number one is to get the hidden money out of politics.
    It's not even that hidden ... We've become so used to corruption that it doesn't seem to bother people anymore - as long as it's "their side" getting what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    If JFK or Eisenhour had come up with the need for a tariff it would have been much different.
    Yes. Both of them went to Congress and discussed the issue before asking for a tariff. More to the point, neither JFK nor Ike was an imbecile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Why does a person own a small sized machine shop in the USA?
    Long hours and McD wages at times. It's a passion which overrules everything logical.
    Bob
    A passion with long hours and McD wages is a hobby

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You obviously have an opinion and every right to express it. Your "problem" seems to be that others also have that right except you don't agree with them. Then what?

    Is true democracy whatever a majority of more than 50% decide it is? 51% for anything and 49% against will always give problems.
    That is WHY we in AMERICA enjoy the System of a Constitutional Republic.
    Democracy and mob rule are inseparable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    It's not even that hidden ... We've become so used to corruption that it doesn't seem to bother people anymore - as long as it's "their side" getting what they want.


    Yes. Both of them went to Congress and discussed the issue before asking for a tariff. More to the point, neither JFK nor Ike was an imbecile.
    Not easy but I fully agree with EG on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    That is WHY we in AMERICA enjoy the System of a Constitutional Republic.
    Democracy and mob rule are inseparable!
    I'm far from sure that "the mob" rules. It's like thinking a flock of sheep are making individual decisions.

    In fact the collie is only making things easier for the farmer.

    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    .... They didn't want to manage anything - just ship the work to the lowest cost bidder. Best that's likely to happen now is that supply chains move again, but to places like Vietnam and India.
    ....
    And here is the big swing and miss of I hate China. These things will move and thanks to the net, computers and cncs they can be moved much faster than in the past.
    They are not moving here so new enemies.
    What we need is a wall against all imports so the masses will be forced to buy only made in USA goods.
    That will teach someone a lesson.

    Any Japanese, German, Swiss or other machine tools where you work? Machines are the big dollars spent in most shops.
    Not so much worried about sending your biggest checks outside the US and killing US jobs? Would you pay 25-50 percent more to buy made in the US with the same capabilities? That ship has sailed.
    The big money long term for consumer cash here is autos. Many liked imports.
    The biggest got this message in spades so going overseas was signed off and okayed by the buying public.

    The world changes, we should not shoot the messenger or the competitor doing well.
    Taxes, tariffs, artificial walls will not increase our ability to compete. They are simply making your competition wear a leg brace in the race while you do not.
    Bob

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    QT Emanuel : [Yes. Both of them (JFK and IKe) went to Congress and discussed the issue before asking for a tariff. More to the point, neither JFK nor Ike was an imbecile.]

    Don't get me wrong ..I'm not sticking up for Trump and a 25% tariff. I might have/would addressed the China and India problem differently but it is a problem that needed dealing with.

    25% Tariff is likely to cost us here in the USA 25% or more higher prices... cause some inflation so our big items will cost more for someone staring out. Raise job wages because of more jobs...and people won't be much if any better off.

    Trump likely thinks China will have/gain more regard for the USA..and they might .(?).

    So I am being sensible not huffy and puffy and name calling Trump. The right place to change something is in voting...but they need find somebody sharper than Clinton...

    Thanks CrabideBob next post #1309: its not at The retail end price..

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    ....
    25% Tariff is likely to cost us here in the USA 25% or more higher prices... .
    Tariff is at wholesale so initial user is 10-12% max and some are eating it in hopes things get better.
    If long standing it's going to become money on the dollar so 25% at retail but that will take a long time to be seen.
    CPI will barely move from this short term which makes many think it's not a problem.
    The public here is short time view. Long and dragged out things we ignore.
    Bob

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    I see tariffs as a drag on the economic system.
    I don’t believe who pays matters, the extraction of those monies are a loss which is distributed to all participants in that system.
    It’s not a ‘cost of doing business’ such as higher fuel costs in shipping or labor expenses as those monies are returned directly to the economy.
    It’s just a loss.

    Lose lose arrangement seems about correct.
    It smacks of inefficiency, a simple drag on our affairs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    .....
    Lose lose arrangement seems about correct.
    Many people are upset about China.
    It wins as we are doing something. It wins votes and that is the bottom line.
    The hit will be way past the next election cycle so not a problem.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    “FREE COUNTRY”

    Where do people get these ideals..
    ..
    it refreshing to see someone tell the truth. There's often this cultural BS about prizing it being in a so called free country, mostly I think that refrain is just indicative of someone who's drank the koolaid. You don't live in a free country, neither do we. Just try to build a deck, go down the road too fast or not pay your taxes and see how free your country is. While there may be too many laws, frankly who would want a free country without rule of law?

    What the idea of free country really means is that you're not going to be detained for opposing/criticizing the government. Its something, compared to places where its not so, but its hardly 'freedom'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Taxes, tariffs, artificial walls will not increase our ability to compete. They are simply making your competition wear a leg brace in the race while you do not.
    Bob
    I disagree. Short term, you may be correct. Long term, you're putting the brace on your own leg, slowing you down, because the domestic producers have less incentive to innovate. It becomes easier to run and ask for ever bigger tariffs to protect them when overseas manufacturers build better/cheaper kit.

    I lived through this in Australia. We're a relatively small economy, eventually the burdens became unsupportable.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I disagree. Short term, you may be correct. Long term, you're putting the brace on your own leg, slowing you down, because the domestic producers have less incentive to innovate. It becomes easier to run and ask for ever bigger tariffs to protect them when overseas manufacturers build better/cheaper kit.

    I lived through this in Australia. We're a relatively small economy, eventually the burdens became unsupportable.

    PDW
    Ah, but we live for the short term quick response here.
    If we did long term planning none of this would have become an issue.
    We need bombs, shootings, big fast news to motivate our public.
    What we need now is for a big answer from China and to kill everyone's 401K. That will spark some support.
    Not a great long term plan but it works. Elections are not far off so short term it is.
    Our big companies show how quick and dirty is the way to the top. No different in politics and maybe worse.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I disagree. Short term, you may be correct. Long term, you're putting the brace on your own leg, slowing you down, because the domestic producers have less incentive to innovate.
    100%. Like what happens to the athlete who has stopped competing. Soon, the ability to win is no longer there.
    Last edited by Mcgyver; 08-08-2019 at 08:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azmachining View Post
    Slavery became common within much of Europe during the Dark Ages and it continued into the Middle Ages. The Byzantine–Ottoman wars (1265–1479) and the Ottoman wars in Europe (14th to 20th centuries) resulted in the capture of large numbers of Christian slaves. The Dutch, French, Spanish, Portuguese, British, Arabs and a number of West African kingdoms played a prominent role in the Atlantic slave trade, especially after 1600. David P. Forsythe[6] wrote: "The fact remained that at the beginning of the nineteenth century an estimated three-quarters of all people alive were trapped in bondage against their will either in some form of slavery or serfdom."[7] The Republic of Ragusa became the first European country to ban the slave trade – in 1416. In modern times Denmark-Norway abolished the trade in 1802. Facts, that far surpass the USA, also much higher concentrations of slaves in your Europe per capita. Let us whine like little children about past sins of our fathers, boo fuckin hoo. Also Spain is who introduced slavery to the United States of America, so let us blame Europe for their influence, it would be fair, right? How about Europe pay reperations for slavery to every blood decendant of a slave? Pay for what our men already gave their lives for, anothers freedom. I'd say for all those that died to give those freedom is reperation enough. No where in the US constitution does it say slavery is just, in contrary to your media brainwashed mind many in the USA from the beginning were very much so against slavery of any kind.
    You want to talk about slavery you better look into china. Or how about our wonderful justice/prison system. This has no bearing on my previous statements. This media caused racial bullshit is dreamed up to seperate and take away are rights. The Deceleration of Independance and Costitution should be interpretted as was intended in that time. The theory that times are different is bull shit used to take away our rights. It has once been said "and that's all that's needed, I believe our founding fathers new and were proposing this in the design of the Constitution", there is NOTHING new under the sun. The idea that you can create a eutopia "bettering one by controlling them" from the outside by one or a few's control over many is EVIL. This goes back to taking responsibility for your own actions that affect your personal self. Man is wicked, all man, why should any man have the right to tell you how to live. This also I believe our you ding father's saw when they designed the constitution. Here's a good FACT, take the log out of your own eye instead of worrying about the splinter in your brothers.
    Actually the Muslim slave trade began even earlier. Slavery was common back in the day...and life was just harder for the average guy. If the King didn’t screw you... a simple sore throat would kill you. Or a mosquito bite would get you. Hell...here in Louisiana back in 1831 slavery was the norm.
    And in 1831 the powers to be wanted a canal from Lake Pontchartrain to the booming Uptown New Orleans.
    Work commenced the following year. Yellow fever ravaged workers in the swamp in back of town, and the loss of slaves was judged too expensive; so most of the work was done by Irish immigrant laborers. The Irish workers died in great numbers, but the Company had no trouble finding more men to take their place, as shiploads of poor Irishmen arrived in New Orleans. Many were willing to risk their lives in hazardous, back-breaking work for a chance to earn $1 a day. By 1838, after an expense of $1 million, the 60-foot (18 m) wide 3.17-mile (5.10 km) long canal was complete enough to be opened to small vessels drawing 6 feet (1.8 m), with $0.375 per ton charged for passage. Over the next decade the canal was enlarged to 12 feet (3.7 m) deep, 100 feet (30 m) wide, and with shell roads alongside.

    No official count was kept of the deaths of the immigrant workers; estimates ranging from 4,000 to 30,000 have been published, with most historical best guesses falling in the 8,000 to 20,000 dead range. Many were buried without a grave marker in the levee and roadway-fill beside the canal.
    New Basin Canal - Wikipedia
    Life was cheap....and as bad as those slaves lives were...the dead Irishmen had it worse IMO.
    That’s the problem. Too many want to judge the past by today’s standards.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What we need is a wall against all imports so the masses will be forced to buy only made in USA goods.
    That will teach someone a lesson.

    Any Japanese, German, Swiss or other machine tools where you work? Machines are the big dollars spent in most shops.
    Not so much worried about sending your biggest checks outside the US and killing US jobs? Would you pay 25-50 percent more to buy made in the US with the same capabilities? That ship has sailed.
    Bob
    So who is buying those Japanese, Swiss, and German machines? Only fools and idiots bent on disaster?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    So who is buying those Japanese, Swiss, and German machines? Only fools and idiots bent on disaster?
    Not at all and that is the point.
    We buy and put our money outside but piss and moan about China.
    So.. we like some offshoring of our cash but do not like others?
    Stand up and buy only made in the USA or live with the fact that the world has changed.
    Japan was junk for so long and the paper toy cheap import with no life. Now we like them. Does that sound familiar?
    Where you part of or even know the Japanese invasion into US manufacturing? How did they make those fast strides? Maybe just smarter than us.
    Bob

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    I believe the substance of the manufacturing prowess far predates the Asian invasion.
    They were a ship building powerhouse prior and no slouches in aviation during the war.

    Read the wiki page.
    Particularly the Meiji period.

    It appears that they emulated the west.
    I think that example of how to approach manufacturing fast tracked their developments.

    Economic history of Japan - Wikipedia

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  25. #1320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    It appears that they emulated the west.
    I think that example of how to approach manufacturing fast tracked their developments.
    This.

    This is what is missing from all the talk about tariffs. I actually skimmed through and read all 66 pages of this thread, and someone hinted on it earlier. They didn't like the tariffs because it was absent of a plan.

    Ha-Joon Chang wrote a whole book on this topic called "Bad Samaritans" but the same points are mentioned in several of his books. Those countries used tariffs along with subsidies where the government and industry worked hand in hand. The UK did it for the industrial revolution, the US did in the 19th century, Japan did it in the 20th, so did Korea, and now China has done the same thing. They protected their markets with tariffs and other barriers like added regulations.

    China, for example, targeted steel and some raw materials, as well as shipbuilding. Think about it - people say "wages", but there are tons of low-wage countries across the globe, yet they are not huge exporters like those mentioned. There was a lot more to it than that.

    When I went to a trade fair in Germany, the Korean govt had a whole booth out with all the tax abatements and things they'd give you if you setup a facility there. The more you invested and hired, the more you got. The US doesn't really have a policy like this that I know of; it's left up to the states and municipalities. North Carolina here, for example, has a good program setup where the govt works with industry. But it's not to the same extent as those countries with a national industrial policy. States can't charge tariffs or change federal regulations.

    I agree that tariffs alone, especially on only one country specifically, don't really stand to do a whole lot. Elizabeth Warren has put out a plan. It may not be great, but it's a lot farther than Trump.

    A Plan For Economic Patriotism - Team Warren - Medium

    The Dems were always the ones promoting tariffs anyway - they voted as a majority against NAFTA in both the House and Senate. The labor unions were always with them. Clinton had to reach across the aisle to Republicans to get it passed. The Republicans were always the ones pushing free trade agreements and lower tariffs. Now that stance has somehow flipped and the Republicans don't know what to do. And the Democrats are playing on anti-Trump, which conflicts with their past stance on trade.

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