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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Everyone does what, listen to Moody's ? Then everyone is idiots.

    Moody's swore under oath that their valuations were worthless, that they did no research, that they could not be held responsible for their ratings, that everything they said was based on hot air and falsehoods.

    Therefore, they are shit. Worthless shit, pure and simple.
    Ok. So completely ignoring whether you know what they said there about the lumber company is valid or not, which of course you have no clue, just exactly who is a trusted source? The Global Times or People's Daily does not count. It seems to me that anytime you see something you disagree with, instead of actually addressing the content, you just simply say it's "not credible". Even when it's indisputable fact like a country using foreign exchange reserves to maintain their currency or other flat out facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    EG I do feel there will be some agreement made on trade with China. Do you?
    Because Trump and his cronies don't know a damn thing about how it works, Beijing will play them like violins. There may be some papers signed. There will be a big celebratory announcement from the Donald about how great he is, nothing useful will have been done except a flashy bone or two thrown to some big campaign contributors, Trump will talk himself up like a hero and China will go its merry mercantilist way.

    It's not the obvious stuff that strangles imports. Sure, there's no more tariffs but if it takes three weeks to determine that your live lobsters don't have pyracantha disease, oh oh too bad, so sorry about them dead lobsters ...

    All the hard work that a lot of smaller US companies had put in to build up exports to China will be lost. People on the buying end that got burnt will not hang themselves out to dry again. Imports to China from the US will be less, except in a few window-dressing cases. Even the big purchasers will look to other countries in the future, as much as possible. The US has demonstrated that one unreliable stupid shit can throw over the entire applecart. The US is not trustworthy. Twenty years from now people may forget but in the meantime ....

    There is already some negative feeling in China over the stoopid US Navy and the spy planes and the retarded anti-commie crap that so many politicians and ignorant people spew. This unprofessional handling of trade issues will only increase those feelings and make it harder for US companies, both internally and externally. Germany and France and Italy will move up the ladder, the US will move down. Canada goes with the US as a lapdog, after the disgraceful Meng arrest.

    Beijing plays the long game. The long game beats the short game every time. This is a major problem with US companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Because Trump and his cronies don't know a damn thing about how it works, Beijing will play them like violins. There may be some papers signed. There will be a big celebratory announcement from the Donald about how great he is, nothing useful will have been done except a flashy bone or two thrown to some big campaign contributors, Trump will talk himself up like a hero and China will go its merry mercantilist way.

    It's not the obvious stuff that strangles imports. Sure, there's no more tariffs but if it takes three weeks to determine that your live lobsters don't have pyracantha disease, oh oh too bad, so sorry about them dead lobsters ...

    All the hard work that a lot of smaller US companies had put in to build up exports to China will be lost. People on the buying end that got burnt will not hang themselves out to dry again. Imports to China from the US will be less, except in a few window-dressing cases. Even the big purchasers will look to other countries in the future, as much as possible. The US has demonstrated that one unreliable stupid shit can throw over the entire applecart. The US is not trustworthy. Twenty years from now people may forget but in the meantime ....

    There is already some negative feeling in China over the stoopid US Navy and the spy planes and the retarded anti-commie crap that so many politicians and ignorant people spew. This unprofessional handling of trade issues will only increase those feelings and make it harder for US companies, both internally and externally. Germany and France and Italy will move up the ladder, the US will move down. Canada goes with the US as a lapdog, after the disgraceful Meng arrest.

    Beijing plays the long game. The long game beats the short game every time. This is a major problem with US companies.
    Wow. Guess the US is in for it after all. US is so stoopid right? . Those Chinese are so smart that the world does not stand a chance right? Guess they will keep taking tech as they have been doing that lessens the cost of R&D.

    Easier that way for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Because Trump and his cronies don't know a damn thing about how it works, Beijing will play them like violins. There may be some papers signed. There will be a big celebratory announcement from the Donald about how great he is, nothing useful will have been done except a flashy bone or two thrown to some big campaign contributors, Trump will talk himself up like a hero and China will go its merry mercantilist way.

    It's not the obvious stuff that strangles imports. Sure, there's no more tariffs but if it takes three weeks to determine that your live lobsters don't have pyracantha disease, oh oh too bad, so sorry about them dead lobsters ...

    All the hard work that a lot of smaller US companies had put in to build up exports to China will be lost. People on the buying end that got burnt will not hang themselves out to dry again. Imports to China from the US will be less, except in a few window-dressing cases. Even the big purchasers will look to other countries in the future, as much as possible. The US has demonstrated that one unreliable stupid shit can throw over the entire applecart. The US is not trustworthy. Twenty years from now people may forget but in the meantime ....

    There is already some negative feeling in China over the stoopid US Navy and the spy planes and the retarded anti-commie crap that so many politicians and ignorant people spew. This unprofessional handling of trade issues will only increase those feelings and make it harder for US companies, both internally and externally. Germany and France and Italy will move up the ladder, the US will move down. Canada goes with the US as a lapdog, after the disgraceful Meng arrest.

    Beijing plays the long game. The long game beats the short game every time. This is a major problem with US companies.
    I get the impression that the goal with the Chinese is to wrest control in their favor in trade. They have actively stolen technology in the US for advancement. I guess American companies who send thier products to be made there must be understanding of the risk in doing so. Perhaps it has reached the point where these companies will want to go elsewhere now because of the fact that Chinese companies often reverse engineer products and then market their own. Just that this happens means American companies should go elsewhere.

    Denmark might be a good alternative or any EU country. I WOULD TRUST THEY WOULD DO THE RIGHT THING.
    Last edited by Trueturning; 10-07-2019 at 09:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    ...All the hard work that a lot of smaller US companies had put in to build up exports to China will be lost.
    What smaller US companies are you referring to?

    I don't think I've ever known a small business that relies on (or even has any) exports to China. Maybe some smaller farms, but I bet they use a co-op or something of that nature.

    The bulk of exports to China- airplanes, electronic components, agricultural products. Big multinationals...

    A lot of small companies buy from China, but that door only opens one direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    What smaller US companies are you referring to?

    I don't think I've ever known a small business that relies on (or even has any) exports to China. Maybe some smaller farms, but I bet they use a co-op or something of that nature.

    The bulk of exports to China- airplanes, electronic components, agricultural products. Big multinationals...

    A lot of small companies buy from China, but that door only opens one direction.

    I guess it depends on how you define "small".
    But yes, lots of ag products from my area are sold in China, mostly not by 1 man 40 acre farms, but some of the larger farms do sell direct. A lot of agricultural products get aggregated by wholesalers anyway- which, again, are "small" compared to Boeing or GM, but still pretty big.
    The aforementioned Hardwood company has 17 mills across the US, but, compared to the big wood companies like Weyerhauser, its "small".
    Same thing with vineyards- yep, most of the ones that are selling significant amounts to China are multimillion dollar operations, but tiny compared to the majors.

    We have a fair amount of small manufacturers that sell some stuff over there- local companies have sold ferries to Hong Kong, seismic testing equipment, fishing equipment, dairy equipment, and more. I am pretty sure there are aerospace and high tech products from my area going as well- Hexcell and Janicki are both near me, Janicki is up to well over 500 employees by now, but still "small" compared to the big defense contractors.

    I know Kevin Potter, who posts here, was selling jewelers tools to chinese universities, although now he has stopped making stakes and small bench tools.

    You would be surprised how much the Chinese buy- everything from fishing reels to electric guitars to synthesizers and fancy stereo gear, made in the USA.
    We sell them high end stuff, they send us cheap crap.

    I have a friend who is consulting over there on a laminated wood beam plant- and no doubt some american made parts will go into that.
    They still buy an enormous amount of Haas machines every month- dunno if you consider Haas "small", but Wall Street sure does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    What smaller US companies are you referring to?
    Stuff I've seen in grocery stores. Cheese was doing well. King crab was becoming popular. There's lobster boats on the east coast that had built up to fifty million $$ a year. Almonds and pistachios. Fluke meters. Weller soldering stations.

    This is just stuff I've seen. The little importers buying this stuff just got burned ... that makes for happy customers, I'm sure they'll be right back after this intermission..

    Oh wait. Me. We averaged a million dollars a year of used machine tools into China. Haven't sold shit for months now, I'll probably quit. Fuckit. Took twenty years to get here, the head dipshit tossed it away in six months. Thanks, Donald.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    It seems to me that anytime you see something you disagree with, instead of actually addressing the content, you just simply say it's "not credible".
    I'll type this really slowly so you can get it the first time : Moody's, under oath, in Congress, testified that their ratings were meaningless, that they did no independent research, they were just a mouthpiece for their customers, that the crap they spewed in public had no basis in fact, that they therefore could not be implicated in the largest swindle seen on the planet since the Dutch tulip craze.

    Swore under oath that they were nothing but a giant fraud. Meaningless ratings. Lies, lies, all lies.

    Perhaps that was all a trick and Perry Mason will spin, point his finger into the audience, and declare "Isn't it true, JoeBob Smith, that you replaced the careful analyses that Moody's did with your own hare-brained assumptions, and that's why the world's economy crashed ?!" And JoeBob will whine and cry and break down, wailing "Yes ! Yes ! I did it and I'm proud ! Those people fired my Momma when she was six months pregnant and caused my miscarriage ! I brought them down, and I'm happy !"

    And Hamilton Burger will lose another one. Ham is going to have serious indigestion this month

    But I seriously doubt it. They probably spoke the truth for once, under oath, to save their own skins. Their analyses are worse than worthless. They were a major component of the 2006 depression.

    Even when it's indisputable fact like a country using foreign exchange reserves to maintain their currency or other flat out facts.
    An indisputable fact like LIBOR, the London Interbank Offerred Rate, which in reality was a total fraud for twenty years, no bank offerred anything to any other bank, they just made it up. Pulled numbers out their ass. Did each other favors. That's an indisputable fact.

    Your indisputable facts live on shaky ground. Hint : just because you believe it, does not make something true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    I'll type this really slowly so you can get it the first time : Moody's, under oath, in Congress, testified that their ratings were meaningless, that they did no independent research, they were just a mouthpiece for their customers, that the crap they spewed in public had no basis in fact, that they therefore could not be implicated in the largest swindle seen on the planet since the Dutch tulip craze.

    Swore under oath that they were nothing but a giant fraud. Meaningless ratings. Lies, lies, all lies.
    I'll type this really slowly also so you can get it the fifth or sixth time now: your "it's just wall street BS" is not only with moody's but with anyone. You said it of the NASDAQ, CME, apparently even govts themselves.......pretty much anyone who disagrees with you, especially if they're any sort of financial firm (I guess maybe I should get the plumber's union to write up financial research...) is supposedly "oh that's just Wall Street and they don't know anything and because of 08 they must be wrong". You look unhinged and not credible when you say that with such a broad brush.

    I typed it clearly. Did you get it that time? I hope so. But I'm not holding my breath.

    So moving on, there is nothing to say that this specific instance of Moody's research, or Fitch, S&P, or other agencies, are wrong. The onus is on you to prove that the specific analysis of this company is somehow wrong. Saying "omg '08 bankers" is not a valid response that anyone should take seriously. The point made here is that the groups studying these companies had given a lot of analysis as to why the company was having problems, then suddenly now supposedly it's tariffs. Management and large shareholders have every incentive to say this. What do you think sounds better - it's what-is-probably-temporary pain from tariffs and not related to us, or "ok yeah we have structural issues that are directly our fault and they still haven't been fixed"? Duh. Am I saying it's definitely not tariffs? No. I don't think the other guy was really suggesting that with certainty, either (a trait you'd do well to learn). It is simply worth being skeptical and there is sufficient evidence that would lead someone to be skeptical.

    Anyway, this is why I said what I said: your go-to seems to always be "well it was Wall Street so it's not credible". That, itself, is not credible. Not everything a financial company puts out is BS. You can find scandals in just about every sector. That does not mean that all participants in said sector are 100% unreliable. That is extreme thinking and not really useful discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Oh wait. Me. We averaged a million dollars a year of used machine tools into China. Haven't sold shit for months now, I'll probably quit. Fuckit. Took twenty years to get here, the head dipshit tossed it away in six months. Thanks, Donald.
    So because machine tool exports stopped for you, that means nothing should ever be attempted to change anything? By this sort of logic, we should never raise the minimum wage because some businesses will go bust. Nor instate any laws or other things which will have any negative effects on anyone.

    Nonsense. Public policy is pretty much always going to have winners and losers. I would totally agree that the policy is not the right one, but that doesn't justify just throwing blank examples out and having a clear bias. That's a big TDS symptom. Taking after Mr. PeteM there.

    What's funny about that specific example is that when you look at what happened with that, they've slowed imports of machine tools from everywhere.

    The Global Machine Tool Boom Continues, Except in China:



    Modern Machine Shop




    ...global machine tool consumption increased $4.1 billion, or 4.8 percent, to $91.9 billion in 2018...the median annual increase in global machine tool consumption since 1961 is 4.2 percent....

    Yet what makes 2018’s growth in machine tool consumption even more remarkable is what has happened in China. Since 2002, China has been the world’s leading machine tool consumer, and the country has consumed at least 33.7 percent of the world total since 2009. This was the case until 2018, when China’s consumption dropped 5.9 percent from $30.7 billion to $28.8 billion, and its share of global machine tool consumption fell to 31.4 percent.

    These circumstances mean that not only did 12 of the top 15 consuming countries increase their consumption in 2018, but they increased their consumption significantly.

    Of course, with China down, other leading countries, such as the United States, Germany, Japan and Italy, all increased their share by simple arithmetic. However, the United States is a particularly interesting case. Its global share of machine tool consumption in 2018 was 10.4 percent. That is the country’s highest share since 2001 when it consumed 13 percent of all machine tools (more than China but less than Germany and Japan).


    Was it Trump? Idk. Sounds more like a general slowdown. Otherwise, they'd be buying it from someone else or even making it themselves. Afterall, that report tries to measure consumption. The imports from everywhere are definitely down. Maybe if it's the tariffs, then they're having a lot more negative effect on China than is generally being reported. Most big media has a pretty undeniable bias against the guy, above and beyond the huge list of truly stupid things he says/does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    I'll type this really slowly also so you can get it the fifth or sixth time now: your "it's just wall street BS" is not only with moody's but with anyone.
    Reading comprehension, D-

    Janc quoted Moody's. Moody's testified under oath that their evaluations were worthless.

    Ergo, not a good source.

    The rest of this shit is your own imagination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Reading comprehension, D-

    Janc quoted Moody's. Moody's testified under oath that their evaluations were worthless.

    Ergo, not a good source.

    The rest of this shit is your own imagination.
    Reading comprehension, F

    Moody's is one of the big ratings agencies. Their evaluations, whether or not they testified to make people happy in 2008, are not worthless. That is why governments, large companies, and many others still attach a value to it. It is still read, extensively. You're welcome to start your "trustworthy" ratings agency business anytime and see how far you get. Again, if you're going to suggest that 100% of Moody's research is worthless, then you should start by saying what it is that is wrong with this particular case. Oh, you mean you don't know about this company or what it does and if they're right or wrong? So you have nothing to dispute it. So it is your evaluation that is worthless.

    If I could give you a Z grade, I would.

    You should recite what you said here to yourself in a mirror over and over and over again...

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Your indisputable facts live on shaky ground. Hint : just because you believe it, does not make something true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    ...Janc quoted Moody's. Moody's testified under oath that their evaluations were worthless.
    Moody's, Fitch, S&P all testified that they were under a lot of pressure to gain market share, and were slow to downgrade their ratings on RMBS paper.

    After the debacle, rules were changed wrt the ratings agencies across the board.

    It's one thing to try to analyze those extremely complicated derivatives and the thousands of individual mortgages that that were contained within. That doesn't excuse their failure, or the fact that there were perverse incentives to overstate the quality of the paper.

    But it's a very different thing to rate a relatively small company based on it's business operations, debt maturities, operating costs, cash flow, etc. It's a simple task in comparison.

    Moody's rated Northwest Hardwoods as junk.
    Rated as poor quality and very high credit risk. Caa2. Caa3. Ca. Judged to be highly speculative and with likelihood of being near or in default, but some possibility of recovering principal and interest.
    That was 2 years before the mill was closed.

    If you have some information that suggests Moody's got it wrong on NWH, that's fine. Put it up so we can see. Simply dismissing the rating based on the source is an ad hom. Do you have any contrary information?

    I wasn't trotting out Moody's as some kind of gold standard- simply suggesting that the reason the management gave for the closure might not be the whole story. The mill wasn't closed by tariffs alone, the problems ran deeper than that- and still exist today. The closure is a cost cutting measure- no different than GM closing a plant that isn't profitable.

    We don't like it when it happens, but it happens. Maybe absent the tariffs, they could have held on. Maybe not. It's a counterfactual- we have no way of knowing.

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    “Some people may ask, if the US raises tariffs further, is it still necessary to continue the talks … the answer is that it’s as necessary to take countermeasures as to continue the talks,”

    China tones down expectations ahead of US trade war talks as Vice-Premier Liu He leads team to Washington | South China Morning Post


    "The policy responses it is considering are all either impossible, impractical, ineffective or expensive. This leaves Beijing in an unenviable position."

    US-China trade war: here are Beijing’s options – and not one looks any good | South China Morning Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Moody's, Fitch, S&P all testified that they were under a lot of pressure to gain market share, and were slow to downgrade their ratings on RMBS paper.
    Let's put it in the most succinct terms : they are liars. In order to make money, they lied. That's what "the pressure" was. MAKE MORE MONEY ! ENGAGE IN FRAUD ! They testified to that fact. They are scum.

    Without their willing engagement in a giant fraud, it could not have happened. They are even more culpable than the dishonest slimy banks.

    If your girlfriend goes out and screws the entire Dallas football team, the next time she says she was "just out with friends", are you stupid enough to believe her ?

    Moodys = worthless. Forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    China tones down expectations ahead of US trade war talks as Vice-Premier Liu He leads team to Washington | South China Morning Post
    Jeeze, TR. All that aricle says is, they are leaving a day early. Whoop-dee-doo.

    Plus, I don't think they expect much from Trump, is that a surprise ?

    The policy responses it is considering are all either impossible, impractical, ineffective or expensive. This leaves Beijing in an unenviable position.
    Did you read that piece ? It's basically silliness, saying that if they sell all their Treasuries, then the world will end. Why would they do that, and how would that be useful in dealing with Trumplestiltskin ? Only some fool finance writer would jump to those possibilities.

    That's NOT the only thing China can do. What they will most likely do is wait it out. Wait until US consumers start screaming. Trump can't pay off all the people that are going to be hurt forever.

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    “Chinese officials have come to Washington this week eager to settle on a narrow deal that would involve tariff reductions in exchange for a resumption of Chinese purchases of American food. They appear unlikely to agree to the administration’s longstanding demands that Beijing limit its subsidies to Chinese firms, change its policies surrounding the treatment of data or make other structural changes, ”

    Trump Administration Weighs Economic Escalation Against China - The New York Times


    Any takes on the “inscrutable” orient?
    Anyone have insights on how round 13 is gonna go?

    Futures roared down 300 points on news of a slight reluctance from China about this meeting.
    Crude and Dow both sitting on a plank well over some deep sell off territory- seems the markets are ready to act given this weeks outcome.

    Edit...

    Hey Sam.
    I did read the piece:

    “Did you read that piece TR ? It's basically silliness, saying that if they sell all their Treasuries, then the world will end.”

    It said the exact opposite- the sell of treasuries would have “no effect” in is therefore not valid leverage.
    Did I miss read?
    Why don’t you go check and report back... just kidding...lol


    Serious though- any take on the balance of power as it stands for these two nations as things stand.
    I’m viewing a sudden agreement will be made to back down from the line.
    The news I’m seeing is our side preparing more hits to China.
    Just required posturing..- “we’re gonna keep smacking ya till you cry like a bitch so maybe you should come around to our way of seeing things”...?

    Trump belies he is punching down- is he wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    “Chinese officials have come to Washington this week eager to settle on a narrow deal that would involve tariff reductions in exchange for a resumption of Chinese purchases of American food.'

    Pure speculation. The writer has zero ... no, less than zero knowledge of what the delegation talks about in their hotel room. For all he knows, it's just a show and a vacation and they are all talking about their new girlfriends. It's crap. Newspaper-selling nonsense.

    Any takes on the “inscrutable” orient?
    Yes. They play for the long term and they don't have polls or campaign contributors.

    Futures roared down 300 points on news of a slight reluctance from China about this meeting.
    That's why "the market" is stupid. Talk about Chicken Little, these people are nothing but a bunch of gossipping old biddies, running around in circles squawking at the sky.

    It said the exact opposite- the sell of treasuries would have “no effect” in is therefore not valid leverage.
    Two ways of saing the same thing. They said there would be no good result of selling, therefore, in my too-colorful phrase, the world will end. If you piss away all your money in the bank to no effect, that's the end of the world (sort of. Actually, if you get cancer, that's the end of the world. This other stuff is trivial compared to that.)

    Did I miss read?
    No, we saw the same thing from a different perspective. See, I don't think China needs US trade anymore, and I don't think the US can find a new supplier fast enough to put the screws to them. Putting tariffs on everything kills sales but sales only exist because people want/need stuff. So it ends up killing yourself, unless you have an alternate supply.

    The US can't starve out China because Chinese people are used to poverty. Millenials, on the other hand .....

    Serious though- any take on the balance of power as it stands for these two nations as things stand.
    The way this was done will make China stronger and the US weaker. There is an entire planet out there, besides the US.

    Something people should have learned by third grade - no one likes a bully.

    The news I’m seeing is our side preparing more hits to China.
    Just required posturing..- “we’re gonna keep smacking ya till you cry like a bitch so maybe you should come around to our way of seeing things”...?

    Trump belies he is punching down- is he wrong?
    "Is that all you got, George ? My momma hits harder than that. They told me you was strong ..."

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    Erdogon says EU needs to stop saying Turkey is invading into Syria. Otherwise he is going to let in three and a half million Syrian refugees. He will eventually blackmail all that he can. A member of NATO gone into the weeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Let's put it in the most succinct terms : they are liars. In order to make money, they lied. That's what "the pressure" was. MAKE MORE MONEY ! ENGAGE IN FRAUD ! They testified to that fact. They are scum.

    Without their willing engagement in a giant fraud, it could not have happened. They are even more culpable than the dishonest slimy banks.

    If your girlfriend goes out and screws the entire Dallas football team, the next time she says she was "just out with friends", are you stupid enough to believe her ?

    Moodys = worthless. Forever.
    So are you going to actually try to dispute anything they said, or just fall back on the failing idea of because a company was once in a scandal, that means everything they do is 100% wrong? I guess we should all start saying any company who lied cannot say correct things. If they say 1+1 is 2, according to you, it must be 3. This is like the 3rd or 4th time now you've been asked by 2 people.

    Come up with something better. You just sound like one of those protestors they interview to make fun of; when asked why they think a certain way, they can't really express it with any certainty. It's always "cuz...that's why"


    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Did you read that piece ? It's basically silliness, saying that if they sell all their Treasuries, then the world will end. Why would they do that, and how would that be useful in dealing with Trumplestiltskin ? Only some fool finance writer would jump to those possibilities.
    The idea is that by doing so they would raise interest rates. You should take a basic finance course. There's Khan Academy, etc. If you're never going to talk about it, then fine, but if you're going to get online and start rattling off incoherently about stuff you obviously don't understand in the least bit, it'd be a good idea. That way you'd learn about how foreign exchange rates are maintained and how central banks intervene with reserves, etc. Back to this idea, I don't personally believe China has any ace up their sleeve with treasuries because it won't be so impactful, not to mention they'd hurt themselves in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    What they will most likely do is wait it out. Wait until US consumers start screaming. Trump can't pay off all the people that are going to be hurt forever.
    Tariffs have been on for over a year now. When is this screaming supposed to start? Please specify. Why is it taking so long? I hear no screaming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    Erdogon says EU needs to stop saying Turkey is invading into Syria. Otherwise he is going to let in three and a half million Syrian refugees. He will eventually blackmail all that he can. A member of NATO gone into the weeds.
    I wonder what changed to make that happen...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    I wonder what changed to make that happen...
    Mm I can only guess.

    1. The Kurds are seen as enemies and terrorists armed to the teeth and a ally of your ally. He is compelled to act to remain in power or the next coup likely will get him.

    2. Turkey has done well in NATO as they have allies and are protected being in NATO and participates as part of NATO quite well over all.

    3. Turkey wishes to become part of the EU because it can benefit from it. It could supply good relations with Muslim countries and free travel in the EU would allow many more Turks to do business in Europe. Turkey would guarantee any influx of refugees from the Middle East would be stopped in Turkey.

    4. They are sly negotiators consider the history they leverage well. Tough and well trained military will support the EU military and add to it economically and diplomatically.

    They obviously are acting like they will let all the refugees lose on Europe unless the EU supports their invasion into Syria.

    Just my opinions

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    Alternatively, the rhetorical question could have been answered with something like this:-

    Trump makes way for Turkey operation against Kurds in Syria


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