New Steel Plants in the USA? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    ...And, as I said before- even if we used a lot more steel, it wouldnt mean very many more jobs. Construction- yeah, that makes a lot of jobs. But steel mills dont.
    I agree that the number of jobs created does not make a big change overall, but as I mentioned previously, it makes a big difference to some people. There are secondary jobs in those towns that will be created too.

    I don't think Trump ever claimed the tariffs would create 200,000 new steel jobs? Maybe he did- I don't hover on every word he utters but I can't recall ever hearing that...

    The reopened/new mills should be more modern and more competitive than before. We don't import huge quantities of steel, but 16 or 17 million metric tons is still a lot that we could be making right here, and it keeps that money in the US economy and helps reduce the trade deficit.

    If the dire predictions of huge job losses in manufacturing and loss of economic growth had actually happened, I would be griping about the tariffs loud and long! That may still happen- who can say? All I know is that so far, the reality has not matched the predictions- the pace of manufacturing job growth increased after the tariffs, so I do not think it's anywhere near as awful as people predicted.

    Do not mistake that statement as crediting the tariffs with the job growth- that's not what I am saying. I think the tax and regulatory reforms were the prime mover, and the tariffs are probably a headwind.

    Even so, it does not seem to be causing much harm to the people who were predicted to be harmed, and it is helping the people who it intended to help.

    I know you have long-term contracts, and I understand the tariffs cause you grief. In my case, I had no problems passing along the increases. If I was in your position, I expect I would feel the same way as you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I agree that the number of jobs created does not make a big change overall, but as I mentioned previously, it makes a big difference to some people. There are secondary jobs in those towns that will be created too.

    I don't think Trump ever claimed the tariffs would create 200,000 new steel jobs? Maybe he did- I don't hover on every word he utters but I can't recall ever hearing that...

    The reopened/new mills should be more modern and more competitive than before. We don't import huge quantities of steel, but 16 or 17 million metric tons is still a lot that we could be making right here, and it keeps that money in the US economy and helps reduce the trade deficit.

    If the dire predictions of huge job losses in manufacturing and loss of economic growth had actually happened, I would be griping about the tariffs loud and long! That may still happen- who can say? All I know is that so far, the reality has not matched the predictions- the pace of manufacturing job growth increased after the tariffs, so I do not think it's anywhere near as awful as people predicted.

    Do not mistake that statement as crediting the tariffs with the job growth- that's not what I am saying. I think the tax and regulatory reforms were the prime mover, and the tariffs are probably a headwind.

    Even so, it does not seem to be causing much harm to the people who were predicted to be harmed, and it is helping the people who it intended to help.

    I know you have long-term contracts, and I understand the tariffs cause you grief. In my case, I had no problems passing along the increases. If I was in your position, I expect I would feel the same way as you.
    Tax reforms?
    You mean tripling the national deficit?


    So now conservatives are in to picking winners and losers?
    Steel workers win, consumers lose?
    Panel manufacturers win.
    Installers lose.

    And across the board consumers pay the price.
    Good thing the deficit spending and stupid low interest are keeping things moving.
    Of course, now the tax bill is coming due for the people.
    Taxpayers Surprised by Tax Bill Instead of Tax Refund | Fortune


    A question...
    How does federal gutting of regulations help construction since that’s almost exclusively local zoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Tax reforms?
    You mean tripling the national deficit?


    So now conservatives are in to picking winners and losers?
    Steel workers win, consumers lose?
    Panel manufacturers win.
    Installers lose.

    And across the board consumers pay the price.
    Good thing the deficit spending and stupid low interest are keeping things moving.
    Of course, now the tax bill is coming due for the people.
    Taxpayers Surprised by Tax Bill Instead of Tax Refund | Fortune
    Maybe you can show us how Obama left a balanced budget?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Maybe you can show us how Obama left a balanced budget?
    I can show how he lowered the deficit by 2/3.
    Even if he’d maintained the same levels he’d still be more responsible.

    If not for the thugs the Bush tax cuts would have expired...as they were supposed to...and the deficit would be even lower.

    Bear in mind, the republicans controlled the House, source for all budget decisions, under obama.
    Republicans and trump own this debt lock stock and barrel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    I can show how he lowered the deficit by 2/3.
    Even if he’d maintained the same levels he’d still be more responsible.

    If not for the thugs the Bush tax cuts would have expired...as they were supposed to...and the deficit would be even lower.
    Miguel, I am not going to follow you down your little rabbit hole. The statements you are making are- once again- demonstrably false. We have been over this. The numbers do not lie.

    Your starting point with the claim of Obama's deficit reduction is 2009, when we had a $1.4 Trillion deficit due to the TARP and ARRA. Neither of those things represent structural deficits. Get a grip. Read the CBO reports.

    The tax bill is nowhere close to tripling the deficit. That is complete and utter nonsense. Adding $100 Billion to a $700 Billion deficit is nothing like tripling the deficit.

    The national debt doubled under both Bush and Obama. Bush started with $5 Trillion and ended with $10 Trillion. Obama started with $10 Trillion and ended with $20 Trillion. Treasury numbers.

    In Trump's first 2 years, we have added another $2 Trillion. We need to get it under control, and to do that we need sustained economic growth- at a rate much higher than the 1.8% we had from Obama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    When you say "coming infrastructure investment" I presume you mean the WALL!, right? Because there is no other planned infrastructure programs nationally. Trump's administration has not come up with a plan. Congress has not got one, no votes have been taken, no monies alloted. There have been cuts in some infrastructure projects at the federal level, not increases.

    I work a lot in infrastructure. Its been crappy since 2007, and its looking to stay that way.

    Steel is really really expensive for residential construction. Not much chance anybody is gonna pay for new steel houses in Puerto Rico.

    Certainly more steel COULD be used- if we were willing to borrow or tax the money to pay for it. No plans of that on the horizon, either.
    Us consumption, and production, of steel, has stayed pretty much the same since the late 70s. And more and more, we use other materials, so even building booms and economic booms dont mean huge increases in steel needs.

    And, as I said before- even if we used a lot more steel, it wouldnt mean very many more jobs.
    Construction- yeah, that makes a lot of jobs. But steel mills dont.
    That remains to be seen regarding a wall. Never do I suggest a house made completely of steel. Supporting heavy load bearing weight might be a use perhaps.

    If the consumption of steel demand increases then more will be made. It would be good to watch out for dumping of low priced steel into the US. The jobs issue is not a big plus to me as to the amount of people will not be very large if there were five new Steel mills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Nobody in history added more dollars to the national debt than Obama, nobody ever.
    Percentage wise he is the 5th LARGEST adder to debt behind FDR, Wilson, Reagan and Bush (#2).
    US Debt by President: By Dollar and Percent
    The last president to reduce the debt was "Calvin Coolidge: Subtracted $5 billion from the debt, a 26 percent decrease from the $21 billion debt at the end of Harding's last budget, FY 1923." (from the link)
    Bzzzttt...
    None of that was his policies except for the AArA which was around 900b
    Of which 1/3 was tax cuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Miguel, I am not going to follow you down your little rabbit hole. The statements you are making are- once again- demonstrably false. We have been over this. The numbers do not lie.

    Your starting point with the claim of Obama's deficit reduction is 2009, when we had a $1.4 Trillion deficit due to the TARP and ARRA. Neither of those things represent structural deficits. Get a grip. Read the CBO reports.

    The tax bill is nowhere close to tripling the deficit. That is complete and utter nonsense. Adding $100 Billion to a $700 Billion deficit is nothing like tripling the deficit.

    The national debt doubled under both Bush and Obama. Bush started with $5 Trillion and ended with $10 Trillion. Obama started with $10 Trillion and ended with $20 Trillion. Treasury numbers.

    In Trump's first 2 years, we have added another $2 Trillion. We need to get it under control, and to do that we need sustained economic growth- at a rate much higher than the 1.8% we had from Obama.
    Bush made policy that caused those doubling.
    We will add another ten trillion or so under those legacy policies PLUS what trump et al add due to policy changes.

    Economic growth does nothing for the debt when you cut revenues below obligations.
    Even without the increased spending the Republican congress passed we were STILL below obligations.

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    You guys should be careful not to go into discussing the politics. The last several posts are taking thecthread onto a different topic into politics. Just be careful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I only posted that to see if you would reflexively jump to Obama's defense.

    Politifact gave Obama the "Lie of the Year" for that one. Good grief, millions of people were sent cancellation notices.
    Getting a cancellation notice because some insurance company decided to get out of a particular market is different than not being able to keep your doctor. I've never heard of a doctor getting rid of cash paying patients. As I said in an earlier post, I've been told that I needed to change doctor or pay the price of keeping them for the last 30 years. It started with the HMO's so it's probably been a little longer than 30 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    This is exactly right. His posts that mention lies are #'s 1,2,8,12,15,16,34&40 He has 4 that did not, #'s 5,9,18&39
    This thread should be closed if this keeps up. Many posts, with links, have shown that steel is being revitalized in USA.
    You come on here and claim that I am lying in 8 posts and give no clue of what you think the lies are and then the moderator gives you a like for your post. In fact you said that I lied in post #2 and it wasn't even my post. But he moderator still gives you a like without checking to see if they were even all my posts. I'd say this part of the forum is doomed if that's how the new moderator thinks moderation is supposed to work. How about giving some examples of the supposed lies.

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    How can it simultaneously be true that "steel mills don't employ very many people" and "We can't afford to make steel here so we shouldn't try."

    Seems like the more automated it gets, the less labor costs matter, so the more transportation costs to make it elsewhere would overwhelm labor costs. I don't know that the feedstocks are labor intensive either.

    Think of all of Trump's words less as facts and more as daily affirmations and it makes more sense. "I'm building steel mills today because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggoneit, people like me."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    "If you like your health plan you can keep your health plan?"
    I love it. Whenever someone mentions one of Trump's (literally) thousands of lies, a brave crusader from the right will bring up this statement (which has various interpretations) from Obama.

    Excellent work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bucktruck View Post
    I love it. Whenever someone mentions one of Trump's (literally) thousands of lies, a brave crusader from the right will bring up this statement (which has various interpretations) from Obama.

    Excellent work.
    It’s the “single study” fallacy people use to deny science.
    Find a single piece of research and fixate on it.
    False equivalency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    You come on here and claim that I am lying in 8 posts and give no clue of what you think the lies are and then the moderator gives you a like for your post. In fact you said that I lied in post #2 and it wasn't even my post. But he moderator still gives you a like without checking to see if they were even all my posts. I'd say this part of the forum is doomed if that's how the new moderator thinks moderation is supposed to work. How about giving some examples of the supposed lies.
    B he has a good point you focused on Trump and harangued about it. If this were new in your behavior you likely would not have anyone mention it.

    Now the thread is moving onto Trump again, tax policy, and deficit spending. You do not show much interest in Steel plants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    B he has a good point you focused on Trump and harangued about it. If this were new in your behavior you likely would not have anyone mention it.

    Now the thread is moving onto Trump again, tax policy, and deficit spending. You do not show much interest in Steel plants.
    We have, right now, more capacity than we need.

    Curious....now it seems we are recommissioning low value facilities.
    What’s going to happen when those tarrifs come down?

    This was sold as national security, yet we had all the capacity we need.


    Hey, does anyone know what’s up with mid continent nail?
    The Anti-Manufacturing Tariff - WSJ
    I wonder if the shutdown impacted the process from the state department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    You come on here and claim that I am lying in 8 posts and give no clue of what you think the lies are and then the moderator gives you a like for your post. In fact you said that I lied in post #2 and it wasn't even my post. But he moderator still gives you a like without checking to see if they were even all my posts. I'd say this part of the forum is doomed if that's how the new moderator thinks moderation is supposed to work. How about giving some examples of the supposed lies.
    I did not say or mean to imply that YOU were lying in those posts. I was pointing out that those posts are the ones that you accused our PRESIDENT of lying. One post is enough to get the point across, maybe 2 if someone doesn't get it but 8 is to many, especially after people posted proof of steel industry being revitalized. You had 12 posts at that point so 2/3 of them were beating a dead horse. I was replying to jancollc in post #42 so at that point there were 42 posts about 1/5 of them were you saying trump lied.
    You say the mod did not check to see if they were your posts? Why? If I made a mistake and mis numbered your posts in my list let me know and I will correct it. But I am sure I did it right.

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  19. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    Good to hear that the steel companies are investing in their existing mills but trump specifically said new steel mills. edit: he didn't actually say "new" steel mills. He said they are building steel mills all over the United States. I took it to mean New steel mills because if you are renovating a steel mill it isn't building them.


    Also, I did google it and couldn't find anything about it. There was an article from fox news from last summer about his claim of new steel mills and even fox news called it a lie.

    Maybe this is just another trump lie. I figured that if there was a place to ask this question that the "Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web" was the place to ask.
    Here's another $1.8Billion plant that looks to be pretty close;
    $1.8 billion Steel Dynamics mill may come to South Texas

    Here's a few more articles that talks of a few billion more in steel plant expansions;
    Investments in steel capacity proceeding in US and Europe | AJOT.COM
    https://www.bizjournals.com/charlott...-kentucky.html


    I don't normally waste much time on this portion of the site but overall this has been a pretty interesting thread, In reading thru it, it sounds like the big takeaway I have is that from those who work in or around the steel industry, is that existing plants around the country are investing heavily in building out all sorts of new improvements, and bringing back online capacity and capability on a scale not seen by industry in years. It also sounds like there are a few very big new projects starting to form on the horizon.

    Going back to your original point here of no new plants, what difference does it really make? If the factory I work at spends millions of dollars building an addition on the side of our facility, adds a whole bunch of new machines and then hires a bunch of new employees is this not the same damn thing if not better than if we built a brand new "plant" 5 miles down the road?

    Lastly, talk about nit picking, I watched your video around 31:00 time frame and here's what happened;
    The president was asked by a reporter if he has done much to head off the increase in tariffs scheduled for March 1. He then goes on to say that he likes tariffs, then rambles a little bit more finally saying "Our steel industry is so vibrant now again, they're building plants all over the United States its a beautiful thing"

    So of that statement it sounds like this thread confirms the first part "Our steel industry is so vibrant now again" is 100% true, and the "They're building plants all over the US" is more along the lines of they are expanding and rebuilding plants all over the US. All and all I would say that is pretty darn truthful from a guy who is on the spot answering a reporter's question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    B he has a good point you focused on Trump and harangued about it. If this were new in your behavior you likely would not have anyone mention it.

    Now the thread is moving onto Trump again, tax policy, and deficit spending. You do not show much interest in Steel plants.
    I have tried to keep it on the subject of steel mills being built but there are a bunch of trump supporters who are going on about all this other stuff that they think trump has done to make his lying about steel mills OK. And what about this guy posting that I lied in 8 different posts without citing any supposed lies and some of the posts that he mentioned weren't my posts? Excuse me but your bias is showing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    I have tried to keep it on the subject of steel mills being built but there are a bunch of trump supporters who are going on about all this other stuff that they think trump has done to make his lying about steel mills OK. And what about this guy posting that I lied in 8 different posts without citing any supposed lies and some of the posts that he mentioned weren't my posts? Excuse me but your bias is showing.
    First - go back and read my post #69.
    Second - which posts did I list that were not yours?
    Maybe thread lock is a good idea? It has been proven and backed up repeatedly that there was no lieing by the president, and steel manufacturing is booming yet you REFUSE to accept that, why? TDS?
    I clearly made a point about you going overboard about your (false) claims that the president lied (8 out of 42 posts) and you twisted it around and say that I said YOU were lieing. I explained that was not the case (post #69) and over two hours later you are still saying the same BS about me saying you were lieing. It is all written out in chronological order for all to see.


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