Open source ventilator? Time for us to make it happen. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    So, would an iron lung help the Corona-virus patient that has trouble breathing or would in interfere with other potions of the treatment?
    I don't think it would help at all the vent needs to be set in a specific way for ARDS
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1584494630655

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    So, would an iron lung help the Corona-virus patient that has trouble breathing or would in interfere with other portions of the treatment?
    There is confusion in this thread of what it is, what a ventilator does and in the comparison to polio and an iron lung.

    The early ventilator technology used a pressure on breathing in and release all pressure on exhale. This caused distress of the aveoli (air sacs)in the lungs. The treatment with this technology did not give a much better outcome than no treatment due to lung damage inhibiting the healing process.

    The next generation did not go to zero pressure on exhale but maintained some pressure to not damage the aveoli. This was an improvement but the increased blood stream CO2 levels caused the patient to feel as if they couldn't catch their breath. This did give an incremental improvement in mortality rates.

    This lead to the third generation in which the patient is sedated and and the breathing muscles purposely paralyzed. This allows an optimal matching of the lung air pressures at the cost of 100% of breathing function is controlled by the ventilator. All of this must be monitored by a person trained to actually monitor the patients vitals. ICU staffing is on the order of two ventilator patients per care giver.

    The problem with COVID-19 is that in patients with respiratory distress, the walls of the aveoli get thicker from inflammation and fluid collects on the outside of the aveoli. This significantly inhibits the exchange of O2 and CO2 across the membrane. The purpose of the ventilator is to use increased air pressure to improve the exchange rate.

    In polio, the patient in an iron lung has a normal lung gas exchange process. The only function the iron lung addressed was to supplement the paralyzed breathing muscles. Many polio patients did die of pneumonia while using an iron lung.

    The idea of an open source ventilator sounds nice at face value however the ventilator machine itself is only a small portion of the equation for successful therapy. It should also be realized that patients on ventilators with a disease process that severely inhibits lung function have poor survivability rates even when we are not dealing with COVID-19.

    The ventilator is not a magic bullet that fixes the problem. The purpose is to hopefully buy enough time so that the normal healing process can get the patient to a point where they can survive. This is very intensive medical care is far beyond just supplementary oxygen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macds View Post
    Forget it.

    The hate im getting over this is insane.
    Heres a contra, then. THANK YOU for bringing up the thought.

    Caused me to do some research. It led to a shameless commercial plug, but it happens to be nicely informational "plug":

    BPAP vs VPAP vs BiPAP vs AVAP

    So I am wiser, now. Thanks to your thread.

    "Hang in there!"

    It's PM. Tough crowd.

    But we all had to learn that as the rope yer hanging by gradually chokes of the air supply, yah just do what any other machina-shits-ist does.

    Breath through yer ass!

    Ventilators for those yah care about remain a righteous alternative to that trick.

    We can't ALL "make chips".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    The ventilator is not a magic bullet that fixes the problem. The purpose is to hopefully buy enough time so that the normal healing process can get the patient to a point where they can survive. This is very intensive medical care is far beyond just supplementary oxygen.
    No doubt, and thanks for the good comments. 100% get it still needs lots of expertise and care....but there are lots of reports suggesting the availability of the hardware is a major looming crisis. I think most here have no delusions that their use is for the for professionals, but we may have the ability to form part of the solution if the lack of hardware is a big issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I'm sure that true. We can keep people for a long time.
    Is that living? What is life?
    Bob
    That's sort of my thinking also but not everybody sees it that way.

    I was watching a TV programme the other day about patients in a Liverpool hospital. One poor guy , I'd say about 45 years old, had Motor Neurone Disease really bad. He was laid out permanently in bed and he could only move his right eye. He used that to communicate with a keypad that recognised his eye movement.
    Amazingly he could communicate quite well in a Stephen Hawkin style fashion. He was obviously a smart guy from his language and he must have thought that amount of life was preferable to the alternative.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    The thing is.. not to make an 'open sauce' one at all

    eh?

    What is done is that at 9am monday morning , the health guys walk into the current ventilator manufacturers and say "get a manufacturing engineer in here and sub EVERY item out 10 times over, all you're going to do is assemble and test..... if it fails the test it goes in the trash , if it passes it goes to a hospital
    And then you'll train another assembly/test team up and start building them in the factory next door which we've just taken over... you need something, you'll have it 30 mins later"

    Thats the only way to beat the supply problem, not faff about with some unproven shit off the internet designed by someone whos copied something ..

    Boris

    <<<currently sort of fit, and pissed that he does'nt get into the high risk group and therefore has to goto work...

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    Good to hear from you Boris. I trust Mr Slammy is in good health as well

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    The thing is.. not to make an 'open sauce' one at all
    Pretty much this.

    Honestly if people want to help out, find all the assholes who hoarded masks and gloves and have them donate all that stuff to a local hospital.

    If you see someone wearing a mask on the street, kindly let them know. Not all, but some will actually do it.

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    This is probably something along the lines of the OP's thoughts.

    MIT design from 2010

    Students develop a low-cost portable ventilator

    This is from the article,

    There is a substantial need for such devices in many developing nations, especially in rural areas that have no access to existing ventilator technology. Dr. Jussi Saukkonen of Boston University Medical Center, who originally proposed the concept of the low-cost ventilator and worked with the MIT team, says that “it’s likely there would be millions of cases worldwide” that could benefit from such a device. In addition, a U.S. government study in 2005 found that in a worst-case pandemic scenario, this country alone might need more than 700,000 mechanical ventilators, while only 100,000 are now in use.

    The bolded text seems quite prophetic.

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    I like it,


    Let's Roll people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metlmunchr View Post
    Good to hear from you Boris. I trust Mr Slammy is in good health as well
    Yeah I'm in rude health as ever.... currently pissed at the number of dipsticks crawling out of the woodwork (the bulk buyers, the lets stand 3 inches away from you types and not forgetting to utter dipsticks ignoring the 'stay the hell away from other people' advice)

    Boris

    And Mr Slammy is fine too.,,, he has a new apprentice to break in

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    I sent email Friday to a small Vent manufacture Airon offering to make parts. I would do it for no charge if I could. Have not heard anything yet

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    Trump Orders General Motors to Make Ventilators - WSJ

    Well well well, right on the money a week early it seems. Remembered your thread the moment I saw the news. But I think that just making ventilators isn't enough because it is a real task to install them into a patient too so that can be the other side of the problem.

    Statement from the President Regarding the Defense Production Act | The White House

    Reads like they got sick of negotiating and just want to force it through.

  17. #34
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    I commend the OP for trying to start doing something positive in this situation. Who would have thought that it would be met with criticism... but wait this is PM.

    At the end of the day, a credit card or license is an invaluable tool for a gunshot victim.... just as a belt is to a person who has a severed artery. Bic pen for asphyxiation. Hell, if you are in the wilderness and a rock falls on you and pins your arm down. The only option to live is to cut it off, do you cut if off with your pocket knife or do you say nope, I'll wait for a sterilized surgical kit to arrive out of thin air like on Hunger Games? Its about survival people.

    There is no harm in developing something that might not be perfect but changes the death rate from what it is because of no equipment to less than is has to be because of at least something.

    FWIW - All federal laws and regulations pertaining to this can be waived because of the state of emergency as long as the right authoritative person approves it. I can totally see a bunch of bright minds on this site figuring something out and it gets approved.

    At the end of the day, legal or not, using something other than its intended purpose in an attempt to save lives doesn't seem to be an irrational decision...I could totally understand people smoking illegal pot to help them with pain.. or what ever else analogy.

    Be safe.

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    About five years ago I got pneumonia ....didnt know I had it ,neither did the incompetent Russian doctor I went to (We bulk bill)....he kept saying I had astma ,and prescribing Astra Zeneca Pharmaceuticals products ....which wernt on the free list ,and cost over $100 for a puffer alone....I was getting worse ,he still says astma ,ya need stronger meds ......anyhoo ,I suddenly ran out of breath at work ,and collapsed ,strength at zero ....,I rang 000 and took breaths of oxygen from my cutting torch ,kept me going for the 20 minutes the ambulance took.....Soon as I hit the emergency room ,doc diagnosed pneumonia ,shot of antibiotic ,5 more tablets of "picomycin"?,and within days I was 100%.....Now ,five days later the Russian doc rings me on a Sunday ,must come to surgery immediately!....Youve got pneumonia!...Ya dont say!.....So the oxy torch ,with shots of oxy ,kept me alive.,IMHO.

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  20. #36
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    Here is the funny bit....how did I get pneumonia?....Midnight snacks of canned tuna ....gastric reflux,bits of tuna got into my lungs .....who woulda thunk it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodstove View Post
    Trump Orders General Motors to Make Ventilators - WSJ

    Well well well, right on the money a week early it seems. Remembered your thread the moment I saw the news. But I think that just making ventilators isn't enough because it is a real task to install them into a patient too so that can be the other side of the problem.

    Statement from the President Regarding the Defense Production Act | The White House

    Reads like they got sick of negotiating and just want to force it through.

    mind you GM and the ventilator co announced they were doing it a few days before
    Trump got the idea

  22. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy1966 View Post
    I commend the OP for trying to start doing something positive in this situation. Who would have thought that it would be met with criticism... but wait this is PM.

    At the end of the day, a credit card or license is an invaluable tool for a gunshot victim.... just as a belt is to a person who has a severed artery. Bic pen for asphyxiation. Hell, if you are in the wilderness and a rock falls on you and pins your arm down. The only option to live is to cut it off, do you cut if off with your pocket knife or do you say nope, I'll wait for a sterilized surgical kit to arrive out of thin air like on Hunger Games? Its about survival people.

    There is no harm in developing something that might not be perfect but changes the death rate from what it is because of no equipment to less than is has to be because of at least something.

    FWIW - All federal laws and regulations pertaining to this can be waived because of the state of emergency as long as the right authoritative person approves it. I can totally see a bunch of bright minds on this site figuring something out and it gets approved.

    At the end of the day, legal or not, using something other than its intended purpose in an attempt to save lives doesn't seem to be an irrational decision...I could totally understand people smoking illegal pot to help them with pain.. or what ever else analogy.

    Be safe.
    The point is, we already HAVE proven designs , we dont have the facilities to make them.

    But as someone has pointed out, using a home designed ventilator created using a 3D printer and an off the shelf computer on yourself is a very different kettle of fish to using it on someone else.

    What happens if your home sourced thing saves someones life , yet a small sharp edge on the leading edge of the tube cuts their vocal cords? hello lawyers.. and they WILL NOT care if you saved the person's life, all they care about is that your device injured someone and they can extract money from you.
    And your liability insurers? nope you never said anything about making medical stuff........

    Boris

    <<currently bored shitless on furlough even though the company makes among other thing, medical supplies. (But they're more for the events of 9 months time )

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  24. #39
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    Meantime ,away from the wonderful world of orange ....some in the UK have developed a modification of CPAP machines that will halve the need for ventilators,and put the idea into production .

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Meantime ,away from the wonderful world of orange ....some in the UK have developed a modification of CPAP machines that will halve the need for ventilators,and put the idea into production .
    It has been on the news all day that first machines due to be manufacture over this weekend and sent to hospitals next week.

    First new ventilators to roll off production line this weekend as industry answers call to step up manufacturing - GOV.UK


    COVID-19 – PES Media


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