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    Default OT: Climate change

    So as not to be misunderstood I'm not a believer in that humanity is the main reason (not even close) for climate change but the fact is that the climate is changing. Hasn't been the first time, won't be the last.

    We just had the worst storm flood ever recorded and in many coastal areas the water rose to a record breaking 6 feet.

    IN PHOTOS: 1-year flood hits Denmark - The Local

    Flooding in Denmark becoming the norm – The Post

    Climate change in Denmark means:

    More rain – more rain during the winter and less in the summer. During the summer there will be more drought periods and heavier rain
    Milder winters – the winters will become milder and wetter. It could lead to the plants’ growth season being extended
    Warmer summers – the summers will become warmer and include more heatwaves
    Higher water levels – a general rise in sea levels around Denmark is expected
    More wind – more powerful storms can be expected
    More clouds – more clouds will cover the skies above Denmark, particularly during winter

    No doubt about it in my mind that the climate is changing (some places slowly and others quickly) and things getting a bit more disastrous with each "event". Could generate some impressive man-made structures to minimize damage.

    Anyone disagree?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Could generate some impressive man-made structures to minimize damage.
    Fixing human intervention with more intervention sounds like a circular argument to me. CO2 caps seem like the only solution.

    We spent Christmas with the in laws at the farm in the Alps. 1450m above sea level. For the first time since anybody can remember there was no snow. None. The mountains were brown and dry. It was freakish.

    Both my Brothers in Law work at the ski resort in the winter. They are running the snow machines full out, drawing down the reservoirs. Snow machines also draw a lot of power. Nobody is skiing and the Hotels were mostly empty.

    Maybe the World Economic Forum in Davos without snow will make the situation clear.

    At least we had a wet Summer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jCandlish View Post
    Fixing human intervention with more intervention sounds like a circular argument to me. CO2 caps seem like the only solution.
    Re "Could generate some impressive man-made structures to minimize damage." I was thinking more along the line of coastal barriers. Not a problem Switzerland has Still what you are experiencing is becoming the norm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    So as not to be misunderstood I'm not a believer in that humanity is the main reason (not even close) for climate change but the fact is that the climate is changing. Hasn't been the first time, won't be the last.

    We just had the worst storm flood ever recorded and in many coastal areas the water rose to a record breaking 6 feet.

    IN PHOTOS: 1-year flood hits Denmark - The Local

    Flooding in Denmark becoming the norm – The Post

    Climate change in Denmark means:

    More rain – more rain during the winter and less in the summer. During the summer there will be more drought periods and heavier rain
    Milder winters – the winters will become milder and wetter. It could lead to the plants’ growth season being extended
    Warmer summers – the summers will become warmer and include more heatwaves
    Higher water levels – a general rise in sea levels around Denmark is expected
    More wind – more powerful storms can be expected
    More clouds – more clouds will cover the skies above Denmark, particularly during winter

    No doubt about it in my mind that the climate is changing (some places slowly and others quickly) and things getting a bit more disastrous with each "event". Could generate some impressive man-made structures to minimize damage.

    Anyone disagree?
    Here starts another political thread that will be going strong weeks from now. Safe to say it will have nothing to do with machine work. Have fun Gordon, I'm out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Re "Could generate some impressive man-made structures to minimize damage." I was thinking more along the line of coastal barriers. Not a problem Switzerland has Still what you are experiencing is becoming the norm
    Sadly, I think the damage to Denmark has already been done. It is just slow in arriving.

    How big are the barriers needing to be if the corrective efforts are put towards the effects of Climate Change rather than the cause? Can CO2 neutral barriers even be built?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    Here starts another political thread that will be going strong weeks from now. Safe to say it will have nothing to do with machine work. Have fun Gordon, I'm out.
    At least we now know your new year's resolution wasn't to stop trolling.

    Now if you had stopped to think (not always your strongest point) maybe you'd have considered the fact that an existing industry could be increased very much. The Netherlands could probably give some very good advice to many countries on coastal protection. Over 30% of NL is in fact below sea level but they haven't needed to evolve webbed feet yet.

    Holland's Barriers to The Sea - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by jCandlish View Post
    How big are the barriers needing to be if the corrective efforts are put towards the effects of Climate Change rather than the cause? Can CO2 neutral barriers even be built?
    Here's where I think we differ. You give the impression that climate change is somehow man-made. With that I don't agree so it's up to humanity to figure out how to best deal with a natural phenomena. Mother Nature is a bitch.

    Climate myths: It's been far warmer in the past, what's the big deal? | New Scientist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    climate change is somehow man-made. With that I don't agree
    Wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Now if you had stopped to think (not always your strongest point) maybe you'd have considered ...
    Are you the Pot or Kettle?


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    Doesn't hurt to reduce gasses and smoke that is good for people's lungs and fall out on food crops... with in reason.
    Forest fires produce about half the carbon dioxide. I think deforestation is also a major factor but nobody is talking about that. IMHO.

    We have a Dow plant near Midland Mi. They were to add a smoke reduction filter house and said the particles would be reduced to something like 300 tons a year.. wow I though what was going up before the change. think that was back around 1980 I will see if I still have the reference to the newspaper article..that would be about 1700 pounds a day or 70 pounds and hour...seems a lot.
    Last edited by michiganbuck; 01-06-2017 at 08:41 AM.

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    Sad to see Denmark, like Venice, Italy, is posed on the precipice before the ocean levels started rising. Doesn't seem like -any- amount of rising is good for you guys.

    The first-hand / direct effects are pretty abysmal. Water temperatures affect sea vegetation which can be the plants preventing coastal erosion in the Gulf of Mexico here, to the ocean-depth that certain plankton reside, seeking their ideal temperature, becoming out of reach of some consumers - leading to population reduction and so on down the food chain.

    It causes incredible agrarian region shifts. The papers and speeches about the violence in the Middle East being strongly exacerbated due to a reduction in agricultural potential is staggering. It's not the cause of the violence there, but it is far easier to radicalize a desperate people than a comfortable people, which means terrorism has more fuel.

    The polar ice reduction means that Canada and the USA has new naval war fronts to concern themselves with. The Dept of Navy has been studying that possibility for decades and making plans.

    For much of the USA Midwest, it seems that we get more swings in weather events to one extreme or the other. It's been terribly dry for many farm regions, resulting in increased burden to water usage.



    @michiganbuck - People are still talking about deforestation, though. Maybe we have our heads in slightly different circles. I don't see it like I did when I was a kid (I think some of the 'save the earth' stuff gets marketed to them, though. Arbor Day, Earth Day, etc) but I still see fundraising campaigns and adverts for it. Companies still promote the idea of reducing paper consumption, increasing paper/cardboard recycling efforts. I think it's become more of a norm, honestly, so it stands out less. Our post offices have large paper recycling dumpsters the public can throw paper into. Cities have recycling pickup programs much more than 20/30 years ago. It's common to see 3 waste bins where there was previous 1, in public buildings, for various recycling drops.

    I personally have no reason to doubt the professional consensus that climate change is anthropogenic in a significant amount. I do not, however, care if other people disagree, as Gordon does. Accepting the -fact- that Climate Change is OCCURING however is the important thing. Coupled with the understanding that humanity CAN IMPACT it in reducing our CONTRIBUTION to atmospheric carbon and other gases is equally important. Even if you don't think we /caused/ it, if you accept that we can /reduce/ these factors, we can come together and work to post-pone the seemingly inevitable, hopefully long enough that technology and society evolve into a long term solution.

    The idea of continued reliance upon fossil fuels as a /near sole source/ of power production is self inflicted genocide. We have to continue to work toward weening ourselves off as much as possible/practical.

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    Here's a pie in the sky idea for carbon sequestration. Pump the raw sewage from cities down depleted oil and gas wells. Pluses are carbon sequestration, decreased water usage that is wasted in sewage processing, heavy metals and toxins deep into earth below water table, natural gas formation from same wells within weeks and some petroleum like oil in a few thousand years, fewer sewer overflows into rivers. Any downsides? Of course some of the sh1t coming from D.C. might produce more gas than other locals.

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    I think I know what you mean. for three years we got almost no rain. now it's rained 6 days out of the last 10. Fucking weird, huh?
    I'm tempted to blame it all on spray cans and cow farts. or maybe I just need an iPhone app to check my carbon foot print. The planet is going to be spinning around bright and blue for billions of years after we're all gone, so who gives a shit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jCandlish View Post
    Wow.

    Are you the Pot or Kettle?
    Do you always get so uppity when someone doesn't agree with you? Climate changes occurred before man walked the Earth.

    I agree with Michiganbuck that we don't need to keep doing something/anything that speeds up the process.

    Convince me with facts. How do you explain the last ice age? Interestingly enough I live in the part of Denmark where the glaciers from the last ice age stopped. Nope, I don't know anyone that was watching.

    http://biobent.dk/DanKlima.html

    Last glacial period - Wikipedia

    Wonder what annoys us most - global heating or a new ice age? Depends on where you live I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Do you always get so uppity when someone doesn't agree with you? Climate changes occurred before man walked the Earth.
    I get upset when otherwise intelligent people wilfully ignore settled scientific facts.

    Of course the climate changed in pre-history. The Earth when through a volcanic stage and was struck by meteors, in addition to the effects of its orbital axial progression.

    Those historic and cosmological causes have F-all to do with the current climatic changes, which are the result of human activities.

    Giant iceberg poised to break off from Antarctic shelf

    We are all drinking out of the same toilet bowl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    So as not to be misunderstood I'm not a believer in that humanity is the main reason (not even close) for climate change but the fact is that the climate is changing. Hasn't been the first time, won't be the last.
    What other science don't you believe in?

    I love how climate change is one of two areas of science that people decide they don't believe. So funny.

    The other is of course evolution. NOPE, BIBLE SAYS HOW WE GOT HERE. SCIENCE IS WRONG.


    Funny how non believers in evolution and climate science are usually the same people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jCandlish View Post
    Of course the climate changed in pre-history. The Earth when through a volcanic stage
    ahh the earth is still going through a volcanic stage.

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    Wind mill power is often stated in how many houses it will light. That is fine but producing heat takes much more electric power.
    It is not uncommon for a wind power unit to produce 1.5 megawatts of power. With a assumed cost of about $.08 per kw hour(that is very good).. but then with not government subsidy and other costs considered the price is higher.
    Think we deserve a clear understanding of the true cost. Will we light homes with wind and solar, and still use fossil fuel for heat?
    Current heating costs are about $2500 fuel oil, $2400 propane, $1300 electric and $1000 natural gas.
    Yes most of the electric is from 67% fossil fuel,20% Nuclear,6% hydro and 4% wind..
    Just saying for wind to Heat homes how many wind units would be needed. How much land space needed for that, How much would it cost.
    Yes we are going to perhaps run out of oil and gas. Even the nuclear facts are hidden..How much will it cost for storage of all the million year water, lost land due to accidents, and storage if hot materials..
    And most importantly on a hot planet where would I go ice fishing?

    The Hidden Costs of Wind Power - IER

    We need to focus on true science, not news media hokum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cg285 View Post
    ahh the earth is still going through a volcanic stage.
    I was referring to the Hadean Eon.

    The name "Hadean" comes from Hades, the ancient Greek god of the underworld, in reference to the hellish conditions on Earth at the time: the planet had just formed and was still very hot due to high volcanism, a partially molten surface and frequent collisions with other Solar System bodies.
    The climate then was molten lakes of lava.

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    And every time we get hit by a big rock out of the sky it all starts over..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Do you always get so uppity when someone doesn't agree with you? Climate changes occurred before man walked the Earth.

    I agree with Michiganbuck that we don't need to keep doing something/anything that speeds up the process.

    Convince me with facts. How do you explain the last ice age? Interestingly enough I live in the part of Denmark where the glaciers from the last ice age stopped. Nope, I don't know anyone that was watching.

    http://biobent.dk/DanKlima.html

    Last glacial period - Wikipedia

    Wonder what annoys us most - global heating or a new ice age? Depends on where you live I suppose.
    This will answer all your questions.
    The point is that, while other things have happened and are happening CO2 and other man released gasses are resulting in a signifigant rise in global temperatures above what would be happening without that input.
    Global Warming and Climate Change skepticism examined


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