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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Wind mill power is often stated in how many houses it will light. That is fine but producing heat takes much more electric power.
    It is not uncommon for a wind power unit to produce 1.5 megawatts of power. With a assumed cost of about $.08 per kw hour(that is very good).. but then with not government subsidy and other costs considered the price is higher.
    Think we deserve a clear understanding of the true cost. Will we light homes with wind and solar, and still use fossil fuel for heat?
    Current heating costs are about $2500 fuel oil, $2400 propane, $1300 electric and $1000 natural gas.
    Yes most of the electric is from 67% fossil fuel,20% Nuclear,6% hydro and 4% wind..
    Just saying for wind to Heat homes how many wind units would be needed. How much land space needed for that, How much would it cost.
    Yes we are going to perhaps run out of oil and gas. Even the nuclear facts are hidden..How much will it cost for storage of all the million year water, lost land are to accidents, and storage if hot materials..
    And most importantly on a hot planet where would I go ice fishing?

    The Hidden Costs of Wind Power - IER

    We need to focus on true science, not news media hokum.
    There is also a long term effect problem with wind power that we know very little about. Wind farms do extract energy from the wind which lowers the energy in the atmosphere and indirectly the air temperature.

    Lowering the air temperature would appear to be a good thing but we are doing it at specific points geographic points and at specific elevations. We do not know how exactly this will effect the climatic system. Could be nothing, very good, or very bad but we need to be honest and admit we don't know.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    And every time we get hit by a big rock out of the sky it all starts over..
    And as unlikely as that is to happen on any given day, we still invest in inventing solutions to detect, mitigate, or prevent such things.

    We should be all too happy to invest in solutions to an equally catastrophic event that's /already in motion/

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  4. #23
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    Questioning is welcomed in scientific circles. There's been massive questioning. There's been competitive evaluation, peer review, and constant challenges that all left experts in the field concluding that it's real, it's happening, and we are not doing enough to curb it.

    You mention some good improvements, though there are gobs more vehicles on the roads today, leaving the per-vehicle efficiency improvements almost moot. Bailing out the Titanic with a water glass is progress. It's getting water out of the ship. It's progress, but that doesn't mean we're doing well enough.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    Questioning is welcomed in scientific circles. There's been massive questioning. There's been competitive evaluation, peer review, and constant challenges that all left experts in the field concluding that it's real, it's happening, and we are not doing enough to curb it.
    I like how climate sceptics and deniers find it more likely that there is a MASSIVE world wide conspiracy in science and they are trying to con us all into not using fossil fuels. All of the evidence is fake and made up by scientists. Al Gore types are just trying to get rich off this conspiracy.

    They find that easier to believe than the overwhelming evidence showing that the science is right.


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  7. #25
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    I was raised a skeptic. That means I try to take nothing as a given but look at the evidence.

    The evidence is incontrovertible, The Earth is warming. There can be no arguments and it is not a belief it is a fact.
    I make my primary living on the ocean and I live by it and have for most of my life. Even if there were no Papers or headlines I can see the changes with my own eyes, and going back in my logs that change is documented. All manor of fauna is moving north and up to stay in a temperate zone it is comfortable with. I can go on and on with specific evidence and will if asked.

    About man made global warming or mans effects on global warming. The is also no room for arguments that we don't have an effect. Let me ask this; How many of the people reading this have double or triple pane windows? Why are they filled with inert gasses? To retain heat or reduce heat transfer that is why.(marketing also plays a part because we are human after all).

    Most of use think in analogies or parables, thats even the way Jesus tried to teach so here is mine.

    Think of the earth as a boat. That boat leaks, but thats ok because there is a bilge pump to pump the water out. sometimes when it is rough more water leaks in and the pump runs full time. sometime the weather is real nice and the boat dries out.
    One day a fool shoots a hole in the bottom, an accident, but the pump keeps up. SO he shoots another hole in it, also an accident, now the pump is running full time but the boat isn't sinking. With the third hole the pump isn't keeping up but it is a big boat so the fool doesn't notice for awhile. As the boat gets heavier it sits lower and more water comes in. Pretty soon the fool notices but there is a limited time in which he can do something before it is to late.

    That my friends is where We are at, on the cusp of too late.

    Arguments about green energy this or that are just people unwilling to adapt to reality and are rightfully worried about their families. I get it.

    What they don't realize is there is money and growth in doing things better. Society just needs to embrace it.

    off the soap box now.

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  9. #26
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    Will more wind farms cause the jet stream to slow down? Will they change the rotational speed of the earth?
    Inquiring minds want to know.

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    getting to know you better John. I always wonder if the evolution deniers would be happy with last years flu shots instead of this years, Because influenza doesn't evolve. I bet not.

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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    And as unlikely as that is to happen on any given day, we still invest in inventing solutions to detect, mitigate, or prevent such things.

    We should be all too happy to invest in solutions to an equally catastrophic event that's /already in motion/
    Actually, we do not put many resources to asteroid collision detection. We do monitor Near Earth Objects and that is what we hear about but most of these are in very stable orbits and represent a very small predictable threat.

    What we don't do is look for distant potential objects. Unfortunately these are difficult to detect. Impossible if they are on a hyperbolic orbit and usually come at us from behind the Sun. These objects also usually have very high velocities so even a small one would deliver a significant amount of energy.

    And the biggest issue of all is that we do not have the technology today to do anything about a killer asteroid anyway and the technology is likely years away, about the same time we perfect fusion reaction energy. A significant impact event occurs on the scale of one every 100,000-500,000yrs. It has been quite a while and we are overdue.

    So, in all of this I think we need to keep a proper perspective. We need to be good stewards of the planet, however there are many things that we have absolutely no control of that could end our existence.

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    Throwing money at a problem makes people feel good. Lighting is perhaps 20 % of electrical energy usage. So about 80% energy usage is other like heat and motor the larger users.
    I have read that it would be impossible to even generate half our total energy needs with wind and solar combined.
    Perhaps turning off more lights, increasing home insulation, making more efficient engines and motors would be a better use of money to reduce fossil fuel usage.
    If one is walking down the walk and sees a broken window. Throwing 20 bucks on the ground or putting it in the mail box may not help.
    Just saying we need to see the cause and effect in real science and numbers.

    Reducing fossil fuel usage is important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seiner View Post
    getting to know you better John. I always wonder if the evolution deniers would be happy with last years flu shots instead of this years, Because influenza doesn't evolve. I bet not.
    Most of these people only believe in science when it's convenient.

    Life saving drug or hospital procedure? No problem, that's science they can believe in!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    What we don't do is look for distant potential objects.
    See John Carpenter's first movie, "Dark Star".

    There is always a distant potential threat. Be afraid!

    Or enjoy the nearby opportunities for what they are.

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    Be interesting to know how many of the people who deny the fact of climate change are people who wake up in climate-controlled housing, get into climate-controlled vehicles, and go to climate-controlled workplaces for most of the daylight hours, then return home the same way.

    And how many work outdoors with living things like plants or animals. Which fewer and fewer do every year.

    Climate change is more obvious to people who actually spend time in the climate.

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    Interesting if you look at this video it looks alike the world is going to catch on fire..but if you read the text the average has gone up .8*C or 1.4*F since 1880.

    The average temperature in 2013 was 14.6 C (58.3 F), which is 0.6 C (1.1 F) warmer than the mid-20th century baseline. The average global temperature has risen about 0.8 C (1.4 F) since 1880, according to the latest (January 2014) analysis from NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS). Exact rankings for individual years are sensitive to data inputs and analysis methods.

    http://climate.nasa.gov/climate_resources/28/
    Still a good question: Is there global warming and if so; What is causing it.
    Yes reducing fossil fuel usage, reducing chemicals in the air, reducing smoke is important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Still a good question: Is there global warming and if so; What is causing it.
    It is not a good question. It is settled science. There is global warming and it is caused by human activity.

    Pretending that it is a controversy just lends credence to the idea that mankind is too stupid to take action about it.

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    Gordon you are wrong on this one.

    The science if very simple- start with a review of following:

    1- What is the carbon cycle?
    2- Are human activities altering the carbon cycle?
    3- Are atmospheric gases part of the system of regulation of the earths albedo?

    No one needs to "convince you with facts"- there are a very simple series of components of the issue- find out what they are and make up your own mind.


    It is worth reviewing a few things in any discussion such as this.

    What are interglacial/glacial periods?
    What are the temperature extents the earth has historically experienced?
    At what position is the current earths temperature in this historical range?

    Plot a simple graph on paper which represents the glacial/interglacial temperature cycling in reference to the range of temperatures the earth has experienced over time.
    Note the periodicity of changes and cycle shifts between extremes in all time frames.

    I love a decent disaster movie- The day After Tomorrow had a interesting twist- Climate change caused a ICE AGE- gotta love it...
    One thing to consider in Europe- collapse of the Atlantic conveyor will make things grim indeed for you folks...:

    A Chilling Possibility | Science Mission Directorate

    Atlantic Circulation Weaker Than In Last Thousand Years | Climate Central

    Hey- but no problem right?.....

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    Nasa agrees we are up 1.4 degrees since 1800 but is that a trend going higher?

    The average temperature in 2013 was 14.6 C (58.3 F), which is 0.6 C (1.1 F) warmer than the mid-20th century baseline. The average global temperature has risen about 0.8 C (1.4 F) since 1880, according to the latest (January 2014) analysis from NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS). Exact rankings for individual years are sensitive to data inputs and analysis methods.

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    I have fished that rock slide on the other side in the photo and off the point to left. One day I caught a big trout off the point and on the way back to camp lost it off my running board, went back on my tracks and it was gone, perhaps an eagle spotted it .... yes through the Ice..often more than 3 feet thick.
    Climate Blind River: Temperature, Climate graph, Climate table for Blind River - Climate-Data.org

    We have seen -30s and fished in -20s.. once got so cold I could not tie a hook even after warming hands and fingers in my bibs. it was about -15 and the wind was blowing like crazy.. caught a big pike that day and buddies who were huddled close to shore and got nothing.
    Little Moon lake..N 46.403, -82.8443 about. We picked this small lake hoping it sheltered but froze going there about 10 miles on snow machines..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Haven't had a flu shot in years. Haven't had the flu in years, either. Influenza evolves so fast that you're getting a vaccine designed for last years virus, not what you are likely to be exposed to after you get the shot. A healthy immune system is the best defense against colds and flu and years of practice defending against various strains helps train the system naturally.
    OT:I have few colds or the like and think taking a half teaspoons twice a week or three times of bee pollen the reason..My fishing buddy Wayne is a heath herb nut and hardly ever gets sick.

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    I believe in climate change, however NOT "man made" climate change. Don't matter if I drive a suv or use an entire can of hair spray in the morning, it will always be changing. Considering the age of our planet, saying we have "global warming", is equivalent to watching the stock market this afternoon for 1.5 seconds and saying its crashing.

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    "I went to this one place that got real cold and it had ice. CHECK MATE CLIMATE CHANGE SCIENTISTS."
    -every fucking retarded denier ever.


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