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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavey Metal View Post
    The object has no value only the labour
    Can you define an object for me please?

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    So basically, the lesson learned here is that when the economy goes to pot, money is worthless. Your worth comes from your ability to create? So, in the meantime, people with creator skills who have a moral compass will not steal from others using the debt system (what financiers do today.) Today's system of money is essentially one that requires the absence of morales, grab the money and run. A financier would get a promissory note and sell the debt to make a penny profit. Which is what happens today. Learn a trade or become a thief, that is the way economics has always been under the rule of government.


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  4. #43
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    A material thing that can be seen or touched.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Thankyou sir for your answer (most would agree with you), and for providing me with the opportunity to correct your view.
    if you are going to correct everyone's view, perhaps you could lead with your education, background and qualifications in economics. Why are you credible on the subject and not just another tin foil hat type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    if you are going to correct everyone's view, perhaps you could lead with your education, background and qualifications in economics. Why are you credible on the subject and not just another tin foil hat type?
    Comon mac, im hardly correcting everyones view. Sea Farmer answered the question, hes clearly wrong (which is fine btw), as evidenced by a very credible Bank of England Q1 report inc videos. There might well be another opportunity coming soon, well see.
    My education. None.. My experience, 16 years participating in the financial markets, DAX30 specifically, all OTC against large LPs and Banks (my conscience is clear). Of course, anyone whos really stepped into the trading arena knows that youre really only trading against one person.
    My credibility. None.. Other than a compulsive obsession to learn and understand what actually is. Ive done a good few years researching the subject of money creation. Although rusty, the basics are the same the world over and its so so simple. The last person id ask for an opinion on money creation would be an economist. Its the foundation of the subject, that is all to often glossed over. How do i know? Ive met a good few LSE economics students at positive money gatherings. They were here for a reason.

    This threads intention is to get people thinking and to DYOR. Not to take what is say as gospel but to challenge your own views and beliefs.

    Anyways, we off to the desert island soon mac, you coming? Gordon is


  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan_Lund View Post
    So basically, the lesson learned here is that when the economy goes to pot, money is worthless. Your worth comes from your ability to create? So, in the meantime, people with creator skills who have a moral compass will not steal from others using the debt system (what financiers do today.) Today's system of money is essentially one that requires the absence of morales, grab the money and run. A financier would get a promissory note and sell the debt to make a penny profit. Which is what happens today. Learn a trade or become a thief, that is the way economics has always been under the rule of government.


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    Kinda ova sortova. Could be argued that if the public is/chooses to be ignorant of a subject that theyve no option but to participate in, by design or otherwise, in a capitalist society. Then perhaps they deserve all they dont get. But ive no view on that.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Comon mac, im hardly correcting everyones view.
    I just wanted a sense of where you were coming from and how time to spend on it. My inclination is to classify it as claptrap, a Zeitgeist with British accents, but I thought i'd try and keep an open mind in case you were the next economics messiah finding something everyone else missed.

    I do think its Zeitgest with British accents. There's lots of economics problems needing attention and keeping the brightest economic minds up a night, but this is not one of them. In fact I haven't yet encountered anyone in the know (prof's, authors, lectures etc) concerned about it. Its a non issue. Like most conspiracy theorists they appeal to the uninformed, wrap something up in a bunch of fact, spin it properly but ignore or obfuscate the tid bits that make it unravel and the average citizen (without any education in how the monetary system works) is all to ready believe it.

    That tid bits omitted, off the cuff, are that banks do not create money from nothing, they must have the fraction to create the money - that's not nothing. That fraction is controlled by the central bank, not the private bank. This systems serves two key tenets of good monetary policy: Firstly it needs to be independent of the government (any first year student knows what happens when government gets to set money supply) and two, distribution makes use of the banks adjudication function, which despite its occasional stumbles is unequaled in reach and ability for credit adjudication.

    Here's someone's list of economics journals. Economics Journal Rankings - BusinessEconomics.com Its probably a pretty safe statement say the best and brightest minds, the thought leaders on the topic comprise the contributors of the top 100. Most are at Universities and the peer review and reward nature of publishing makes it a bit silly to argue they're all corporate/central bank shills.

    If you look through the content in them, I doubt you'll find much giving any credibility or support to that movie's contention. For example, here is the Journal of Monetary Economics. You can read back through the abstracts and have a look for yourself. Journal of Monetary Economics | Vol 8, In Progress , (June 216) | ScienceDirect.com

    Lots of things needs fixing, but this isn't one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Money can always be tampered with dee. Aim to explore that a little later



    Id say what backs money ultimately is trust. Whether its an official note or an IOU scribbled on a fag packet, there has to be a trust that either can be redeemed for goods / services.

    Bitcoins. Is a funny one in that its not physically backed by anything, but its supply is limited in some way.
    I dont do the old labels thing, to me it just creates more division n diversion. As to why Bitcoins have been created (we can all read the daily bullcrap) and how they will fail, like you ive no real idea. If they have been created for the greater good then id 'guess' theyd fail cos the hens trod on the weasels toes.

    yes, trust.
    and people around the world trust the US government backing of dollars- which is why they trade in dollars in many countries with other official currencies.

    as for Bitcoins- my whole point is- it makes Zero difference why Bitcoins were created.
    unregulated by government, "the market" has taken them over.
    and the market, in this case, chinese speculators and gamblers, are using the volatility of Bitcoins to make more profits- the market is completely unconcerned with "greater good", or with ideological aims to avoid government control. They like Bitcoins because they can make money on the swings in value, and that, of course, reduces their utility as an alternative currency.
    If your Bitcoin can fluctuate in value wildly, its much less desirable as a currency than a stodgy old Ben Franklin.

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    Zeitgeist! Really? That there should be no money and we should use technology to take care of eachother and our planets limited resources? Take a look around you mac, do you see any fucker ready for that shit yet!? Neither do I.

    Central banks controlling the amount of broad money with narrow money!? Youre about 40 years out of date mac. I had a chart that showed the ratio at around 100/1 in 2008, that sheds a bit o doubt on the old 10x multiplier dn it. QE has bought that back to around 7% last time I looked. The amount of money circulation is primarily governed by 2 things, commercial banks willingness to create (sorry i meant lend) and our willingness to borrow. Thats just the way it is im mac, period!

    Professors, hmmm, well heres a couple for ya.
    Prof Charles A. E. Goodhart, Professor Emeritus of Banking and Finance, London School of Economics.
    Professor David Miles, Monetary Policy Committee, Bank of England.

    The book was written by guys involved with positive money.



    The reason the Q1 BOE report exists and money creation doc exists is down the guys from positive money.

    The reason its been discussed in parliament is down to, well, you get the idea.




    But fuck all of that TLDR bullshit mac, aint nobody got time for that. Its repulsive for the masses. We dont want to repel them mate, we want engage them, and help them understand in part at least the game theyve no option but to play.

    PS economics messiah? Nah. Im aware of my ignorance, are you aware of yours?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    yes, trust.
    and people around the world trust the US government backing of dollars- which is why they trade in dollars in many countries with other official currencies.

    as for Bitcoins- my whole point is- it makes Zero difference why Bitcoins were created.
    unregulated by government, "the market" has taken them over.
    and the market, in this case, chinese speculators and gamblers, are using the volatility of Bitcoins to make more profits- the market is completely unconcerned with "greater good", or with ideological aims to avoid government control. They like Bitcoins because they can make money on the swings in value, and that, of course, reduces their utility as an alternative currency.
    If your Bitcoin can fluctuate in value wildly, its much less desirable as a currency than a stodgy old Ben Franklin.
    Thought Bitcoin Was Dead? 216 Is the Year It Goes Big | WIRED

    Nasdac

    Citi

    Visa

    Capital 1

    Are all on board

    Fuck the goddamn government

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    yes, trust.
    and people around the world trust the US government backing of dollars- which is why they trade in dollars in many countries with other official currencies.

    as for Bitcoins- my whole point is- it makes Zero difference why Bitcoins were created.
    unregulated by government, "the market" has taken them over.
    and the market, in this case, chinese speculators and gamblers, are using the volatility of Bitcoins to make more profits- the market is completely unconcerned with "greater good", or with ideological aims to avoid government control. They like Bitcoins because they can make money on the swings in value, and that, of course, reduces their utility as an alternative currency.
    If your Bitcoin can fluctuate in value wildly, its much less desirable as a currency than a stodgy old Ben Franklin.
    If I were one of the 'boys' who had access to unlimited $. Do you think I could a bit of havoc in the bitcoin market? Do think by doing that I could shape the opinon of folks such as yourself? Do think id have motive bearing in mind im a money creator? (obviously im not but if i were)

    Bitcoin is just out the gate, its not really worth discussing here imo.

    Btw: All currencies fluctuate, ask the swiss. Theres a bit of a trend if you havent already noticed. Doooooooooooooown

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    In the dollar we trust! Check the dudes on the rights face at the end of the video! Priceless!! lmao


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    PS economics messiah? Nah. Im aware of my ignorance, are you aware of yours?
    i try to be but I've a basic understanding and before spending (wasting) a lot time understanding and/or refuting third party info (watching the movie, reading everyone's links etc) its reasonable to want to know the basic economics credibility of whoever is claiming to have seen Bigfoot. Baker for example is seemingly prattling on as one ignorant of how money is created would, with no background in economics. You can't serious put up Baker as a credible backer of the idea? I hardly claim to be world's experts on monetary policy, far from it, but I do note that those who are are not in much of fuss about this.

    Your point that you think the multiplier is overextended may well be discussion worthy. But that strikes me as tuning vs nutbar positions that the entire monetary system is messed. Look at countries where the monetary system really is messed and why vs how stable central bank fractional reserve currencies have been and it becomes fairly obvious the system we have works. This is in the context that those reading understand what monetary policy is and isn't. That said, if you insist the entire world of economics got it wrong and you have a "better mouse trap", bring it on and i'll listen.

    Have you read that book? I'd read it, sounds like it is balanced and has the support of credible types. I didread Goodharts forward, its hardly a indictment of fractional reserve banking or a call for the gold standard . He's sounds like he's calling for a better understanding among the audience of how money supply works (thats a good thing) and that there's issues in how effective the multiplier effect is when there is low growth/low interest rates. So? I'd proffer that's not what monetary policy is supposed to address....that's fiscal policy. I do heartily endorse the notion though of people becoming more educated on the subject....buts its a pretty dry and dusty vs the the thrill of conspiracy

    I'll leave you guys to it....in meantime please post (hopefully in some detail) just exactly how you think monetary policy and practice should work

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    i try to be but I've a basic understanding and before spending (wasting) a lot time understanding and/or refuting third party info (watching the movie, reading everyone's links etc) its reasonable to want to know the basic economics credibility of whoever is claiming to have seen Bigfoot. Baker for example is seemingly prattling on as one ignorant of how money is created would, with no background in economics. You can't serious put up Baker as a credible backer of the idea? I hardly claim to be world's experts on monetary policy, far from it, but I do note that those who are are not in much of fuss about this.

    Have you read that book? I read Goodharts forward, its hardly a indictment of fractional reserve banking or a call for the gold standard . He's sounds like he's calling for a better understanding among the audience of how money supply works and that there's issues it how effective the multiplier affect is when there is low growth/low interest rates. So? That's not what monetary policy is supposed to address....that's fiscal policy. I do heartily endorse the notion though of people becoming more educated on the subject....buts its a pretty dry and dusty vs the the thrill of conspiracy

    I'll leave you guys to it....in meantime please post (hopefully in some detail) just exactly how you think monetary policy and practice should work
    I was one of the first to have the book and have read it cover to cover. For me Goodharts involvement was a good indicator that contents re creation were valid. Ive no view on growth.
    Trust me, the subject is so grey and boring to me now, im on fumes whenever i bring it up.
    Main points for me are.
    1) Mass education and basic understanding of the public.
    2) A debt free fiat currency created by the CB and controlled by an Independent Monetary Policy Committee.

    I think i got just about enough mojo for the final fling. No ultimate fix, no minute detail, no big words. I want to convey the basics to keep things accessible.

    Its truly simple.

    "The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it. The process by which banks create money is so simple the mind is repelled. With something so important, a deeper mystery seems only decent." John Kenneth Galbraith, former professor of economics at Harvard, writing in 'Money: Whence it came, where it went' (1975)..”

    I wana keep it simple

    Then we can all discuss serious shit like french cars

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    I

    2) A debt free fiat currency created by the CB and controlled by an Independent Monetary Policy Committee.
    this is the most important bit. you have to accomplish the two things I listed earlier on; make sure government does not have a hand in monetary supply, and make sure there is a worthy distribution system for the increases in supply. This is currently very well done. We currently do have a independently controlled monetary policy, and it works. in the US for example, study how the appointments are made to avoid agency risk. We all love to hate banks (cdn ones are the worst) but who else has the national credit distribution?

    That it is debt is meaningless, just doesn't matter. For every debt issued there's a corresponding deposit. What matters is the mechanism isn't controlled by the gov and there is merit based distribution (decentralized credit granted through an adjudication process)

    forget whether its debt or not, that's a red herring. Say there is no debt. Explain how your independent body would be more independent and have less agency risk than the current central bank (US Fed say) and how you would distribute an increase in money supply?

    1) Mass education and basic understanding of the public.
    wouldn't that be something! A dream come true, government who had to do the right economic thing because the educated population knew what to hold them accountable for. imo economics is like science, 1% of the population is literate. End of the day though, its not really fair to expect any meaningful percentage to learn it; most are just trying to get through day, no energy or time for very dull lectures or books after work, household and family. That's why we elect and employee experts....which of course suffer the worst sort of agency risk.....they say and do what'll get them elected rather what we elect them for.

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    What's money mean to me?

    In this country you gotta make the money first.
    Then when you get the money, you get the power.
    Then when you get the power, you get the women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    What's money mean to me?

    In this country you gotta make the money first.
    Then when you get the money, you get the power.
    Then when you get the power, you get the women.
    Then the woman you get takes all the money.

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    Is a shop in fact a money printing machine?
    Your pour raw materials and labor in and get paper or a number in your account in return.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Is a shop in fact a money printing machine?
    Your pour raw materials and labor in and get paper or a number in your account in return.
    Bob
    I like this Bob, but to go one step further,I see shops as Wealth creation machines. If they are run properly.

    People who create something useful and of value tend to have more wealth. Money is used to obtain resources to create more value with the resources. What is the usefulness of selling debt, if not to destroy money? Does this not devalue it, thereby reducing the wealth potential? Caveat: assume debt is not the same as credit.


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