Thread: OT - opening up as best we can. AKA - is it still just the seasonal flu?

Originally Posted by Limy Sami

Putting that aside, ….do you honestly think governments all over the world would have brought in control measures that are wrecking economies etc etc - just for the fun of it?

No, but it is very inconsistent from state to state here and some of the measures make no sense. Like Maryland shutting down self serve car washes. There are brick walls from ground to ceiling between stalls, if that doesn't follow social distancing what does? They have taken down all the basketball hoops on play grounds. It is rare you find outdoor courts where groups of strangers commonly chose sides and play each other. Only once did I live near a popular outdoor court where that often happened. It is most likely a group of friends getting some exercise. Now those same people are probably packed in someone's living room playing video games. How did that help anything?

Originally Posted by Limy Sami

Putting that aside, ….do you honestly think governments all over the world would have brought in control measures that are wrecking economies etc etc - just for the fun of it?

When the State tells you it’s safe to go to Home Depot to buy a sponge but dangerous to go and buy a flower, it’s not about your health.
When the State shuts down millions of private businesses but doesn’t lay off a single government employee, it’s not about your health.
When the State bans dentists because its unsafe, but deems an abortion visit is safe, it’s not about your health.
When the State prevents you from buying cucumber seeds because it’s dangerous, but allows personal lottery ticket sales, it’s not about your health.
When the State tells you it’s dangerous to go golf alone, fish alone or be in a motor boat alone, but the Governor can get his stage make-up done, and hair done for 5 TV appearances a week, it’s not about your health.
When the state puts you IN a jail cell for walking in a park with your child because it’s too dangerous but lets criminals OUT of jail cells for their health- It’s not about YOUR health!
When the state tells you it’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor for chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet deems a liquor store essential- It’s not about your health!
When the State lets you go to the grocery store or hardware store but is demanding mail-in voting, ITS NOT ABOUT YOUR HEALTH.
WAKE UP PEOPLE — If you think this is all about your health you’re mistaken! Please open your eyes! Stop being lead like blind sheep.



Whoever would give up essential Liberty, in order to buy some temporary Security, deserves neither Liberty nor Safety."

I do not know if was here or another site I visit but an emergency room doctor link had some interesting information. He had been in the ER for 25 years or more and could only remember two flu deaths in his career. He asked his colleagues around the country and one had 5-6 max in their career.
Turns out flu death numbers actually about 1/4 of the reported numbers. The CDC counts flu deaths as death from flu, respiratory distress, and then multiplies that number by about 2 to 4 include to estimates of unreported cases.
He went on to say pretty much all his colleagues had treated at least one covid 19 death this year alone.
Bil lD

Originally Posted by CalG

When the State tells you it’s safe to go to Home Depot to buy a sponge but dangerous to go and buy a flower, it’s not about your health.
When the State shuts down millions of private businesses but doesn’t lay off a single government employee, it’s not about your health.
When the State bans dentists because its unsafe, but deems an abortion visit is safe, it’s not about your health.
When the State prevents you from buying cucumber seeds because it’s dangerous, but allows personal lottery ticket sales, it’s not about your health.
When the State tells you it’s dangerous to go golf alone, fish alone or be in a motor boat alone, but the Governor can get his stage make-up done, and hair done for 5 TV appearances a week, it’s not about your health.
When the state puts you IN a jail cell for walking in a park with your child because it’s too dangerous but lets criminals OUT of jail cells for their health- It’s not about YOUR health!
When the state tells you it’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor for chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet deems a liquor store essential- It’s not about your health!
When the State lets you go to the grocery store or hardware store but is demanding mail-in voting, ITS NOT ABOUT YOUR HEALTH.
WAKE UP PEOPLE — If you think this is all about your health you’re mistaken! Please open your eyes! Stop being lead like blind sheep.



Whoever would give up essential Liberty, in order to buy some temporary Security, deserves neither Liberty nor Safety."

what a load of fucking old bollox

Originally Posted by CalG

When the State tells you it’s safe to go to Home Depot to buy a sponge but dangerous to go and buy a flower, it’s not about your health.
When the State shuts down millions of private businesses but doesn’t lay off a single government employee, it’s not about your health.
When the State bans dentists because its unsafe, but deems an abortion visit is safe, it’s not about your health.
When the State prevents you from buying cucumber seeds because it’s dangerous, but allows personal lottery ticket sales, it’s not about your health.
When the State tells you it’s dangerous to go golf alone, fish alone or be in a motor boat alone, but the Governor can get his stage make-up done, and hair done for 5 TV appearances a week, it’s not about your health.
When the state puts you IN a jail cell for walking in a park with your child because it’s too dangerous but lets criminals OUT of jail cells for their health- It’s not about YOUR health!
When the state tells you it’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor for chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet deems a liquor store essential- It’s not about your health!
When the State lets you go to the grocery store or hardware store but is demanding mail-in voting, ITS NOT ABOUT YOUR HEALTH.
WAKE UP PEOPLE — If you think this is all about your health you’re mistaken! Please open your eyes! Stop being lead like blind sheep.



Whoever would give up essential Liberty, in order to buy some temporary Security, deserves neither Liberty nor Safety."

What's it about then?

Remember the Patriot Act?
Essential liberty? Not being able to go out like you want vs the ability to label literally anyone as a terrorist, search and seize with impunity, and deny due process essentially without limit? Was a bit worse, and is still largely in effect (they said it'd expire and yeah both Bush and Obama extended it).

As for masks, do look at some research. They help immensely, if everyone wears even simple ones.

As for Sweden, it's looking like their plan didn't work as well as hoped. In spite of being a naturally "distanced" folk. Had a good chat about that with my Finnish friend yesterday.

As for being a "pulmonary illness like flu" read almost any science now, it attacks all over in unprecedented ways, reinfects, is usually worse the second time, and is nasty in many ways very dissimilar to flu. There are reams of stuff to read.

Some of you are really showing where you get your info from, while implying the folks taking this seriously are sheep.

being able to get an abortion IS about health. absolutely.

childbirth was the most common cause of death for adult women for most of human history. yes its much safer with modern medicine, but it still is seriously risky to the womans's health.

the fact is, some states have used this crisis to limit women access to essential healthcare, so if anything it has been used to infringe on a woman's personal liberty and freedom to control her own body. arn't you all about freedom and personal liberty? why doesn't that extend to women? who the hell are you to tell a woman what risks to take with her own body?

Originally Posted by Screwmachine

What's it about then?

Remember the Patriot Act?
Essential liberty? Not being able to go out like you want vs the ability to label literally anyone as a terrorist, search and seize with impunity, and deny due process essentially without limit? Was a bit worse, and is still largely in effect (they said it'd expire and yeah both Bush and Obama extended it).

As for masks, do look at some research. They help immensely, if everyone wears even simple ones.

As for Sweden, it's looking like their plan didn't work as well as hoped. In spite of being a naturally "distanced" folk. Had a good chat about that with my Finnish friend yesterday.

As for being a "pulmonary illness like flu" read almost any science now, it attacks all over in unprecedented ways, reinfects, is usually worse the second time, and is nasty in many ways very dissimilar to flu. There are reams of stuff to read.

Some of you are really showing where you get your info from, while implying the folks taking this seriously are sheep.

I'll bite

A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

"Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%."

3% effective must be enough for some, I feel that is silly.


And in Regard to Sweden, while many nations are experiencing frustration along with civil unrest,

This is the Swedish model offers an out


Swedish approach will allow the country to maintain social distancing measures in the long term without putting the economic system at risk. Dr. Tegnell said he believes certain regions in Sweden are already very close to achieving “herd immunity” — a state where so many in the population have built up resistance to the virus that it is no longer a pandemic threat.

---

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“We do believe the main difference between our policies and many other countries’ policies is that we could easily keep these kinds of policies in place for months, maybe even years, without any real damage to society or our economy,” Dr. Tegnell said.
Although the government has not issued a stay-at-home order, many Swedes have decided to quarantine and practice social distancing on their own volition, Dr. Tegnell said.
Allowing the public to make their own decisions surrounding protection against disease follows a years-long tradition in the Swedish public health system. Dr. Tegnell said the government does not require vaccinations by law, but 98 percent of Swedish children have been vaccinated.
“It’s a long tradition that has worked very well,” Dr. Tegnell said.

Stockholm and NYC may both be running up national numbers ....

Have a look at Sweden's "Daily new death" data plot. the curve is much like elsewhere.
https://www.worldometers.info/corona...ountry/sweden/

I wonder how the UK is with regard to hot spots.

Originally Posted by CalG

I'll bite

A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

"Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%."

3% effective must be enough for some, I feel that is silly.

Cal, did you read the study you found and posted? It came to an entirely different conclusion about effectiveness of proper medical masks.

The criterion was infection and illness, not if some viral particles could get through. As noted on PM over a month ago, no mask is 100% effective at catching every bit of RNA. But they substantially reduce the viral load - incoming AND outgoing.

The control was normal safe practice (wearing medical masks when people thought it useful). Might add there might have been a sort of "Hawthorne effect" in the control group. As they said, they couldn't do a real control. Since the control group was also wearing masks (whenever they wanted) we really don't know how good the cloth mask is compared to nothing.

Relatively cheap 3-layer medical masks were found to be highly effective - provided, used and replaced 2x a day. Home-made 2 layer cotton masks (think doubled bandana), continually re-used with washing suggested at home, were found not quite as effective as the control, and less effective than the medical masks.

Might add that if someone had suggested an experiment where people were given 3 ply toilet paper to throw away after use, and 2 ply cotton handkerchiefs to wipe all day and then take home and wash -- one might expect the toilet paper arm of the study would have a bit less contamination than the shitty bandana. It's not as if they tried to put up a good 3 play home-made mask, changed as frequently, and then assuredly washed up for comparison.

What the test suggests (to me) is that a bandana, doubled up, and worn time after a time and washed now and then is better than nothing but not as good as a medical mask used and then thrown away. Maybe a false sense of security, as well.

In any case, even a crappy home-made mask will cut down the dispersal of aerosols from someone who is sick -- the other side of the equation.

If properly made with a fliter layer, replaced a couple times a day (it gets a viral load), and then properly washed -- a home made mask might likely prove near as effective as a medical mask. Friend dropped by something the other day. Her homemade mask has a high efficiency filter sandwiched between tightly woven cloth and a nose bridge.

Originally Posted by PeteM

Cal, did you read the study you found and posted? It came to an entirely different conclusion about effectiveness of proper medical masks.

In any case, even a crappy home-made mask will cut down the dispersal of aerosols from someone who is sick -- and if properly made with a fliter layer, replaced a couple times a day (it gets a viral load), and then properly washed --could likely prove near as effective as a medical mask.

I read the report, The quote cited is a copy and paste. not my conclusion.
"PROPER MEDICAL MASKS worn and used appropriately are a good thing. ('Won't keep the buggers out of your eyes though.).

If only "they" would quit fiddling with them.... ahh, but they don't.

Better than nothing I suppose....

This is the bottom line

YouTube

And I've never really agreed with the guy....

go figure

just posted with a title so it shows up to those who have put me on "ignore"

Originally Posted by Screwmachine

As for masks, do look at some research. They help immensely, if everyone wears even simple ones.

They don't help a lot of the people I see wear them. You can observe people frequently messing with their masks even putting their fingers up inside them after touching surfaces that have had lots of other people touching them. That and the glove wearers acting like the gloves must be germ repellents. I would venture a guess non medical people wearing protective gear are no more safe as a whole than those without. For every person using protective gear correctly there is a guy eating cookies with the same gloved hand he just handled coins with.

COVID-19 expert: Coronavirus will rage 'until it infects everybody it possibly can'

Isn't it interesting how as usual none of the so called experts are even in the same ball park with their predictions. Now we have a clown predicting 70% of the USA population will get sick. Nothing like some jack ass fueling the panic of the scared masses.

Originally Posted by Dualkit

COVID-19 expert: Coronavirus will rage 'until it infects everybody it possibly can'

Isn't it interesting how as usual none of the so called experts are even in the same ball park with their predictions. Now we have a clown predicting 70% of the USA population will get sick. Nothing like some jack ass fueling the panic of the scared masses.

This same guy back in January...

Dr. Michael Osterholm is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

He says Americans should be aware of the situation, but not worried.

"Public health around the world is on alert for this. They're monitoring it closely and intervening quickly when cases are identified," Osterholm says.

"I think the thing we worry about as health officials is a thing called "super spreading" where we have certain individuals that are not just infectious but highly infectious. This happened in a health care setting in Wuhan China where one patient transmitted the virus to 14 health care workers."
...


Osterholm says isn’t too worried about a mass outbreak here in the U.S. but he is worried about the global impact of a mass outbreak overseas.

"The U.S. should be very concerned about it, but not because the fact that we're going to become clinically ill with it, but today many of the products and goods that we use in this country, including our medicines, medical equipment, etc. come every day from China."

Coronavirus outbreak: What to know, and should the U.S. be worried? | kare11.com

Originally Posted by Dualkit

They don't help a lot of the people I see wear them. You can observe people frequently messing with their masks even putting their fingers up inside them after touching surfaces that have had lots of other people touching them. That and the glove wearers acting like the gloves must be germ repellents. I would venture a guess non medical people wearing protective gear are no more safe as a whole than those without. For every person using protective gear correctly there is a guy eating cookies with the same gloved hand he just handled coins with.

Do pay attention

mask does little to prevent you from catching the disease
it prevents you from spreading the disease

precisely because we are not medical professionals who know how to use PPE

Originally Posted by gustafson

Do pay attention

mask does little to prevent you from catching the disease
it prevents you from spreading the disease

precisely because we are not medical professionals who know how to use PPE

I, along with many others here, have been "fit Tested" and trained on the proper usage of a n95 mask. Smoke testing weeds out all the leaks real fast.

Originally Posted by Limy Sami

As I thought - you haven't been tested, therefore you don't know whether you have it or not.


It is possible for a carrier to be asymptomatic (as in show no signs of the disease) yet still be able to pass it on to others, ……………….and as it can take up 14 days (and possibly longer) to incubate, it can be passed on to a great many people and so on.



Putting that aside, ….do you honestly think governments all over the world would have brought in control measures that are wrecking economies etc etc - just for the fun of it?

Two explanations for "asymptomatic".

One is that this disease is totally harmless to some while extremely serious and even lethal for others.

The other is that those without symptoms are simply false positives from a flawed test.

Much of what has been claimed for this disease is unique in medical history and borders on the fantastic. Now they are even blaming something that looks like Kawasaki Syndrome in young children on "COVID-19". The syndrome is quite rare, about 6-10 per 100,000 and can be caused by virus, bacteria, and even by chemical exposure according to some studies.

As this drags on it looks more and more like a hoax where a real disease slightly more dangerous than flu has been artificially portrayed as a super-deadly pandemic.

It's not being done for fun but rather for a number of reasons including providing cover for a long anticipated financial collapse and a massive transfer of real wealth to the financial industry on the way down. Political opportunists are using this to achieve a number of goals including defeating populism and nationalism along with their figurehead Trump while growing the power and reach of government. Under cover of fighting a global pandemic many of the long sought after goals repeatedly rejected by the people are finally being achieved.

Who on earth could have predicted that freedom loving people would ever not only submit to mass surveillance ("contact tracing") but eagerly download an app to enable it. What would have been unthinkable only months ago such as jailing citizens for going to church or operating a legal business or walking on a beach is now being cheered by the frightened witless masses.

"protect us!" "protect us!"

The government certainly will heed the call but at a price that will be staggering and impossible to avoid paying once the truth is finally realized.

We've all been "punked", and not for fun.

How is it that Dr Fauci and Bill Gates (not a doctor) predicted a world wide pandemic four and three years ago respectively?

Originally Posted by Joe Miranda

How is it that Dr Fauci and Bill Gates (not a doctor) predicted a world wide pandemic four and three years ago respectively?

Smart guys who are paying attention.

This is a perfect example of the types of leaders we need.
Either they need to be smart or they have to be capable of taking advice from those who are.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/ran...RAND_OP360.pdf

Originally Posted by Joe Miranda

How is it that Dr Fauci and Bill Gates (not a doctor) predicted a world wide pandemic four and three years ago respectively?

Fauci has made that warning to every President since Reagan.

It's a pretty safe bet, and gets more likely as the world continues to shrink.