OT - opening up as best we can. AKA - is it still just the seasonal flu? - Page 61
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  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Social Security is socialist in nature, because it is redistributive by design. It takes money from young working people and gives it to people who are old and no longer working, and the amount someone pays into the fund has no relationship to the amount of money they get out.
    So are you saying that if one has only paid $2500 into Social Security in their lifetime that they will get full max benefits out?
    Please check that math or talk to person in this position.
    I should not get into such so a dope slap.

    How do we reopen and get customers back in the same force as before? Social distancing will not work in so many parts of the economy that we have known.
    Fear has raised the savings rate which means not spending as not seen before.
    When the consumer does not spend there is a trickle up.
    There is a lot of fear and a lot of worry. How to clear that?
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    I work in the telemedicine field. The range of services and diagnoses that can be performed remotely is not small. In addition, telemedicine can be a force multiplier. For example, you do not need a neurologist to attend a stroke victim in person, they can service multiple stroke victims in the same time and assist a GP to administer tissue plasminogen activator to relieve ischemic stroke, or an epidemiologist can assess COVID-19 symptoms in elderly and determine the best course of treatment. The notion that somehow the consult in person is more valuable is not a valid assessment. A remote consult may be more timely and thus life-saving, while an in-person visit can lead to complications or just delayed care. In-Person and Remote consults are not interchangeable and should not be used in an exclusionary manner.


    dee
    ;-D
    So, while I can see the value when there is some kind of medical professional (at least a nurse or EMT) attending the person, in other cases where only the elderly person is present how do they ....

    Check blood pressure
    Draw blood and do analysis
    Perform electrocardiograms
    perform an eye exam including an ocular pressure check and retinal exam
    Give injections
    perform an ultrasound
    Remove corns and callouses from feet
    Perform dental work

    While I can understand the value for preliminary screening the inability to perform necessary "hands-on" work puts the elderly at risk.

    Your last sentence sums up my feelings exactly. They are not interchangeable. In one case that I am dealing with a person with a serious blood disorder that requires careful monitoring of blood chemistry had their appointment already delayed two months when they bumped it several more months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    So are you saying that if one has only paid $2500 into Social Security in their lifetime that they will get full max benefits out?
    Please check that math or talk to person in this position.
    I should not get into such so a dope slap.
    No, what I said was this:
    the amount someone pays into the fund has no relationship to the amount of money they get out.
    I did not do any calculations of benefits.

    The way it works is, it's a "points system". You get a point every quarter you earn $2500 or more. It does not make any difference if you made $2500 or $25,000. You get one point. Obviously not everyone pays the same amount FICA tax.

    When you retire, the number of points accrued determines the benefit.

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    Blimey.
    I see TDS is still alive and kicking!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    What?! PeteM's one of the most even-tempered posters here, where do you get "back stabbing" from him? I've rarely (ever?) seen him lash out at someone else, as I've been known to do (but they always deserve it ).
    Pete is a decent fellow though zealous. Anytime y’all go off on Trump the thread degrades. Why don’t you ease off? None of y’all have made headway except to distract from the topic. I am trying why don’t you join me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    So are you saying that if one has only paid $2500 into Social Security in their lifetime that they will get full max benefits out?
    Please check that math or talk to person in this position.
    I should not get into such so a dope slap.

    How do we reopen and get customers back in the same force as before? Social distancing will not work in so many parts of the economy that we have known.
    Fear has raised the savings rate which means not spending as not seen before.
    When the consumer does not spend there is a trickle up.
    There is a lot of fear and a lot of worry. How to clear that?
    Bob
    This will eliminate a lot of low paying work/jobs. It will be interesting.

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    How do we put it back together before this as in 3 to 5 months in the so way forgotten past?
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    I work in the telemedicine field. The range of services and diagnoses that can be performed remotely is not small. In addition, telemedicine can be a force multiplier. For example, you do not need a neurologist to attend a stroke victim in person, they can service multiple stroke victims in the same time and assist a GP to administer tissue plasminogen activator to relieve ischemic stroke, or an epidemiologist can assess COVID-19 symptoms in elderly and determine the best course of treatment. The notion that somehow the consult in person is more valuable is not a valid assessment. A remote consult may be more timely and thus life-saving, while an in-person visit can lead to complications or just delayed care. In-Person and Remote consults are not interchangeable and should not be used in an exclusionary manner.


    dee
    ;-D
    You are joking again aren’t you? Telemedicine for stroke victims? Have you ever had a stroke?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    What?! PeteM's one of the most even-tempered posters here, where do you get "back stabbing" from him? I've rarely (ever?) seen him lash out at someone else, as I've been known to do (but they always deserve it ).
    Um, okaaaaayyyyy................................


    1) Started a thread about opening up.
    2) Put another sentence in the title to start a fight.
    3) Fights.
    4) Blames others for fighting.

    Notice any pattern there....??

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    How do we put it back together before this as in 3 to 5 months in the so way forgotten past?
    Bob
    Politicians declare victory and we move on.

    We didn't exactly overwhelm the health care system, it's about as underwhelmed as I've ever seen it. We've protected it about half to death.

    Enough already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    . . .
    Insurance companies are certainly in it for the profit- buying and selling risk is not socialism.

    The rest is just tax-funded infrastructure or services.

    Police and Fire are locally funded and benefit everyone equally. Municipalities get the level of police and fire protection it's voters choose to fund. That is not socialism.

    Highways are funded by use taxes. Not socialist, and no specific beneficiaries. IOW, they fit within the "general welfare" definition, and postal roads are specifically enumerated.

    Inventing new definitions is a familiar tactic of the left- let's just redefine everything that is tax-funded as "socialism". The purpose to remove the stigma of the socialism label by defining all of government as socialism. So socialism gains a level of tolerance it does not earn or deserve.

    Contrary to your characterizations, conservatives do not object to governments in principle. What we object to is using the coercive apparatus of government for the redistribution of wealth, for economic reasons.

    That is the socialism that conservatives push back on. The rest, as you say, is just squirrels running around...
    Means of "production" are paid for by all the citizens, decided by their vote. The benefits are typically redistributive. We all pay for cops, firemen, teachers, public infrastructure, armed services. Those actually needing them are the beneficiaries.

    Use taxes only pay for a fraction of road and highway costs: Who Pays for Roads? | Frontier Group

    We have essentially zero "use taxes" for destroying clean air, clean water, the climate. None at all for willfully destroying public trust with hidden money and lie after lie.

    If you want examples of "using the coercive apparatus of government for the redistribution of wealth, for economic reasons" look no further than wars to keep oil company oil flowing.

    Or, removing environmental safeguards to remove "externalized costs" from favored industries.

    Then add, special legislation freeing some industries from legal actions, that legislating making it harder for things like mutual insurance companies, municipal utilities or internet, or generic drugmakers to compete.

    Could add all those special tax breaks allowing various companies - heavy users of our courts, schools, infrastructure -- to pay essentially zero taxes. Some still wonder how Trump became (per him) a gazillionaire without much paying taxes. The promised but denied tax returns and all. Could add lots of proper firms where we actually see the tax relief legislation. Stadiums paid by citizens, used by a fraction, an example to go along with numerous financial firms who privatized their booms and socialized the busts.

    As for giving money to the poor -- not especially a fan of that. I do think we should help every kid become the best they can be. Invest in the well-being, a good education. Treat them like venture capital - all our citizens our portfolio -- recognizing that only some will go on to have immense success and pay it forward. Hope most help restore our now shrinking middle class.

    Also have a bit of a backstop if they get ill, kicked out of a job. But just giving away money to people, rich or poor, without some reasonable expectation of an ROI seems a waste of citizens' resources to me. Difference between us might be that you seem to see that as mostly a problem when, say, citizens are getting a $1200 check; not when banksters are getting $1,000,000,000 of bailouts.

    As far as your "inventing new definitions" being a commie socialist sneaky type in your mind - my 1971 Webster's Third International Unabridged dictionary is right at hand. First definition for socialism, some 50 plus years ago: " . socal and political movements advocating or aiming at collective (e.g. jointly funded) or government ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods (and services)." You know, schools, roads, firehouses, police cars, aircraft carriers . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    When I graduated high school manufacturing was widespread and you could graduate high school, get a job, and earn enough to eventually have a nice house and all the other trappings of a middle class lifestyle. Today, kids graduate college and end up working in a grocery store or restaurant and often have to stay with their parents because they can't afford rentals that are out of reach for low wage earners. And they compete with hordes of foreigners for those low wage jobs (and the cheaper apartments).
    When I graduated from High School in the 70's a trainee in a skilled trade like machining, plumbing, carpentry, electrical contracting, etc could start out at around double minimum wage by passing an aptitude test. A lot of those jobs today pay their trainees minimum wage. Unless you own your own business a non union worker in all the above trades makes pay that definitely was ate up by inflation. In 1973 when I was 12 years old, my friends dad was a carpenter that worked for a local home builder. He paid us $1 each an hour as a helper in the summer. He said he made $12 an hour. He was paid flat rate by the job, like a mechanic making book rate. Put that $12 in an inflation calculator and you get $69.29. Almost all job sites had one helper per skilled tradesman.

    Fast forward almost 50 years and the job sites in that area have very few skilled tradesman and those guys are no longer picking up nail guns. The skilled tradesman are training and watching over all the day laborers they picked up at Home Depot that are getting $10-12 an hour cash. I bet those guys supervising the day laborers are getting anywhere near $70 an hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Fast forward almost 50 years and the job sites in that area have very few skilled tradesman and those guys are no longer picking up nail guns. The skilled tradesman are training and watching over all the day laborers they picked up at Home Depot that are getting $10-12 an hour cash. I bet those guys supervising the day laborers are getting anywhere near $70 an hour.
    I used to spend a lot of time in Charleston. There was a building boom in the late 90's. The construction crews were funny. The roofers were all Mexican. The sheetrockers were all Salvadoran. Framers were from somewhere else. I guess it made it easier to keep the crews working together, I don't know.

    But if you were Salvadoran, you weren't going to be a roofer, lol.

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    Way Back when 60s 70s 80s goods from a communist country had a duty...when world free trade opened. Along with the UN providing special postage rates for China and the like jobs just left the country. The premise was the we could live on a service industry. People out of work don’t hire much service...
    So our kids can live in the basement and cut the grass in trade for 1,000 a month worth of our retirement money.
    I am lucky that my kids are doing well and are on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    The construction crews were funny. The roofers were all Mexican. The sheetrockers were all Salvadoran. Framers were from somewhere else. I guess it made it easier to keep the crews working together, I don't know.

    But if you were Salvadoran, you weren't going to be a roofer, lol.
    I used to work in So Cal for a large company in the early 90's. For some reason the Mexican guys hated people from El Salvador. A good running gag was I would ask any new hire that came from Mexico if they were from El Salvador.
    Some of the reactions were pretty comical. I think in your above situations if an El Salvadorian, came on the roof the Mexican guys would push him off. They used to think of them pretty much as gutter trash. That is why I am shocked how most of the media implies that racism from a non white is rare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    So our kids can live in the basement and cut the grass in trade for 1,000 a month worth of our retirement money.
    I am lucky that my kids are doing well and are on their own.
    I always wonder the breakdown of the under lying cases of our continuing to grow up slower and slower over the decades. When I was in High School in the late 70's the goal of most males was to get a driver's license and car. It seemed girls got a lot of help from mom and dad there and boys were lucky to get dollar matching. I got no help, not even a loan. A lot of us guys hung out helping each other keep our junkers road worthy. The next goal after a car was getting out of mommy and daddy's house. Rules were pretty cut and dry for most my peers. At 18 you are out, unless you are a full time college student. If you didn't earn enough to split an apartment with a roommate, the armed forces were always hiring. The few that stayed after 18 and weren't in college paid room and board, plus did most the household chores. Those were usually asked weekly how they were progressing toward getting their own place.

    Girls were treated differently than boys, the same step dad that said I was out at 18 let my sister live at home till she was 21 and she did not attend college or pay room and board. I got the last laugh and moved out at just shy of 17 1/2 when I graduated High School. I lived on hotdogs, 2 for 99 cent frozen poor boy sandwiches, and you can bet I was at K-mart waiting for the blue light special close to closing time at the deli for pre made sandwiches.

    They did have video games back them, they were in arcades and pizza parlors, we even had a Pong console at school.
    Most every guy I know stopped playing when they got a car, which was the prerequisite for having a girlfriend.

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  19. #1217
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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    None of those- with the exception of Social Security- is anything to do with socialism.

    Social Security is socialist in nature, because it is redistributive by design. It takes money from young working people and gives it to people who are old and no longer working, and the amount someone pays into the fund has no relationship to the amount of money they get out.
    ..
    Total load of bovine feces
    don't believe what the republicans and wall street tell you on that.
    there is a direct relationship between what you pay in and what you get in benefits.
    my mother who didn't work all the time and earned a low wage gets way less then my wife
    who is just now retiring payed in for over 30 years at a much higher wage gets considerably more.

    we won't even get into the chunk of money they took out of the social security fund for the general fund.

    know your facts

  20. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    I always wonder the breakdown of the under lying cases of our continuing to grow up slower and slower over the decades. When I was in High School in the late 70's the goal of most males was to get a driver's license and car. It seemed girls got a lot of help from mom and dad there and boys were lucky to get dollar matching. I got no help, not even a loan. A lot of us guys hung out helping each other keep our junkers road worthy. The next goal after a car was getting out of mommy and daddy's house. Rules were pretty cut and dry for most my peers. At 18 you are out, unless you are a full time college student. If you didn't earn enough to split an apartment with a roommate, the armed forces were always hiring. The few that stayed after 18 and weren't in college paid room and board, plus did most the household chores. Those were usually asked weekly how they were progressing toward getting their own place.

    Girls were treated differently than boys, the same step dad that said I was out at 18 let my sister live at home till she was 21 and she did not attend college or pay room and board. I got the last laugh and moved out at just shy of 17 1/2 when I graduated High School. I lived on hotdogs, 2 for 99 cent frozen poor boy sandwiches, and you can bet I was at K-mart waiting for the blue light special close to closing time at the deli for pre made sandwiches.

    They did have video games back them, they were in arcades and pizza parlors, we even had a Pong console at school.
    Most every guy I know stopped playing when they got a car, which was the prerequisite for having a girlfriend.
    This stuff isn't gone. It's not some completely dead relic of a time past. I was born in 1994 and my story is almost the exact same as yours. The only difference is I still play video games. They got much better after pong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Am I the only one who studied Geography at school ? North Korea is not an island.
    On a more serious note what's the state of dental treatment in the US at the moment ? Over here it's ceased to exist unless you want an extraction.

    Regards Tyrone.
    still pretty much closed down on the dental wife's daughter
    not having a good time with her practice with it closed

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    As far as I know there is very little being done in dental work in Tx or Nv, not sure about other states. I had a root canal in January, the mold for crown was taken in mid February, appointment for fitting crown was 2 days before the lockdown, being that all news stations were reporting "community transmission", I opted to postpone it until things were under control. So now the new crown is sitting in a dentists office in Tx, and I'm trying to find a dentist in Nv that can do the fitting/installation. No idea if dentist in Tx will refund part of the cost so I can pay new dentist, or when I can get this finished.

    I've given up on trying to talk sense to most people I know on the CV issue, they have all lost their marbles and bought into one conspiracy theory or another. No idea how so many in this country got so stupid.
    I was due to have root canal work done on March 25th. My dentist phoned me on the 23rd to tell me my appointment was cancelled for the immediate future. It's a back tooth and it's still grumbling away. Last Friday I bit into a choc ice and lost a filling in one of my other teeth. On Monday I phoned my dentist again and he hadn't moved one inch forward in all that time. All they are offering still is extractions.

    It's not just my dentist, it's all dentists throughout the UK. One of my wife's ex-students is a dentist in a nearby town. We've been talking to him. He's a real good young go getter and he's in the same position. They're all being held back by a lack of PPE. The young guy had managed to buy a consignment of surgical masks but he is waiting for government advice as to wether they are suitable to use in the chronovirus environment and how to proceed with treatment in the future.

    I asked him " When do you think dentists will be back to what we think as normal ". He said " Not this year, you may be able to get that filling replaced by September. I can see me doing 7 patients a day instead of my previous 21. What you need to bear in mind is some dentists are already going bankrupt and many of the older dentists will just retire early ".

    Thanks for cheering me up !

    Regards Tyrone.


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