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  1. #1
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    Default OT: vehicle battery recycling

    The fly in the ointment:

    The Afterlife of Electric Vehicles: Battery Recycling and Repurposing - IER

    Disappointing to see that lithium is not economically recovered from old cells. Where does that fit in the grand scheme of solar with battery backup, if we are to pretend we can all go our own way off grid? The solar proponents are all gungho while the sun is shining. So am I

    One thing I wonder about: as a battery ages and takes a charge less quickly, does it not also waste more power from the charger? So if you were charging your own car on your own solar array, you'd be seeing less and less return per dollar invested in your 'grid'. If so, then this is a strike against battery storage versus an on demand live grid where the power produced is consumed immediately.

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    Far as i know li ion batteries lose capacity and internal resistance rises, but you still have 99 % amp hours in = out.


    Internal resistance doesn't matter much for slow discharge grid storage application.

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    Stationary applications still mostly use lead acid in some form, Tesla Powerwalls notwithstanding. Lion is great for transportation where weight is important, but much more expensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johansen View Post
    Far as i know li ion batteries lose capacity and internal resistance rises, but you still have 99 % amp hours in = out.


    Internal resistance doesn't matter much for slow discharge grid storage application.
    Nope, sorry not true, badly not true! As internal resistance goes up, you dissipate ever more power as heat, theirs no free ride and charge - discharge cycle on most batteries is more in the 80% total out of what goes in range, Grid based, you also get inverter losses too, theres no free ride with this stuff. Due to power being dissipated being the current squared times resistance though, a slower charge really is a lot more efficient as well as ageing the batteries a lot slower. Its generally the heat that impacts them most from faster charge - discharge rates. Batteries age there internal resistances climb.

    Solar panels age too, most are guarantied to lose less than about 1% a year. That said for my roof mounted solar here, weather conditions cause noticeably more fluctuation than that, i see a easy +-10% difference year on year, some times worse some times a lot better 2017 was bad, 2018 was one of my best, system went in circa 2011 ish if memory serves right?

    Gotta remember your IC car ages as well, tell me how much efficiency have you lost at 200,K Miles or how much have you spent maintaining the engine by then? Theres no free ride on any of the current or future energy storage methods. They all age, they all have inefficiency.

    You may want to look at just how little lithium there is in those batteries too, nothing like the volumes of lead in lead acid. Equally the lithium is pretty tied up in the cells. Lithium is pretty abundant though and mining it compared to hydrocarbon fuels is very minimal impact wise. The metal in the cell cases and any power wiring in the packs probably has far more value. That said, out side of tesla a lot of the EV batteries are largely polymer based cases, not metal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    Stationary applications still mostly use lead acid in some form, Tesla Powerwalls notwithstanding. Lion is great for transportation where weight is important, but much more expensive.
    Its one of the interesting quirks, good lead acid if you only use a percentage of the installed capacity can hit the kinda numbers of charge discharge cycles Lion's can. Lion is - has its own quirks and does not ever like to be over about 80% full or 20% empty, going over 80% full is not too detramental, but it impacts if it sits there for too long. Hitting 100% by sunset would not be too bad if your down to 80% before midnight, but if your still at 90% com morning, its going to be eating into cycle life pretty hard as the electrolytes simply start to break down in the cells.

    Lead acid well you really start to impact cycle life going much bellow half charged, but will sit there happily at 100% charge. Pretty much every battery chemistry ever invented has negatives and positives, generally its about how much capacity for a given volume and mass. Me i would probably go for good deep cycle lead acids if i had the money. You simply get more usable capacity for the cost. That said, every time i have ran the numbers, grid power really would need to just about double in cost before home storage would make any kinda 10 year pay back financial sense, good luck getting any guarantee on batteries with a 10 year life span too. Some batteries if well cared for may make 10 years, but its getting towards the end of usable capacity at that point. Don't get me wrong, the technology is moveing at a fair old pace and if your reading this in 2021 it may well be viable by then.

    Here in the Uk right now, spending the money on more solar makes way more sense, a 4Kw install is now in the £3K range and would reduce most peoples electric bill down massively. Especially if your retied and home most days, you could pay that off in savings on current power prices in low single digit years and the systems will go on working with very little expense for decades.

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    I totally agree.

    I've been introduced to the joys of Lion cells by my cordless chainsaw. Storage and state of charge management can get complicated.

    Too bad installed solar prices in the US are higher than almost anywhere else in the world. Typically around $2.75/watt for residential.

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    The downside to solar is rearing its ugly head........mainly the companies giving 20 year warranties on cheap solar disappear after 5 years ,the cells fail in 6-7 years,and there is accumulating right now a mountain of junk solar panels,which have very little scrap value,small alloy frames,but the panels are dangerous to transport in the light.........As to Li cells.....light weight for cars,nothing but massive disadvantage for a home system,where weight doesnt matter.....Lead acids are simple to charge,dont need a million computers to charge one battery.And still have some salvage value.......but I notice lead price has fallen markedly ,in the order of 20% in six months.........lead acids may be toxic waste in a few years ,with a high disposal cost.------------something to ponder.....a lead acid battery wont burst into an inferno ,burning your house down,or explode ,demolishing it.

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    First, if you want to be persuasive rather than dogmatic, watch your sources:

    The IER is the successor organization to the Institute for Humane Studies of Texas, an advocacy group established in 1984 by billionaire businessman and political donor Charles Koch.[2] After failing to pay the Texas state franchise tax, IHST lost its charter in 1989, and was later rebranded as the Institute for Energy Research, or IER, under the presidency of Robert L. Bradley Jr., the former director of public policy analysis for Enron.[2] IER began by distributing quarterly reports to a small but growing list of donors in the early 1990s and eventually expanded its publishing capabilities to include highly publicized studies. It was not until 2001 when Bradley secured funding to make IER a full-time organization. In 2007, IER was moved to Washington, D.C. where it transformed itself into an energy think tank producing research and analysis on global energy markets.[3]

    Second, aside from the source, this is an unremarkable piece of junk, and, the way you tell is this:

    "Electric vehicle batteries typically must be replaced every seven to 10 years for smaller vehicles and three to four for larger ones, such as buses and vans. "

    source? apparently their imagination

    how about this:

    Data appears to show that capacity remains between 90 and 95 percent, on average, even at 150,000 km (93,000 miles).

    There are individual data points scattered on both sides of that line, of course.

    But, overall, the data offer some basis for confidence that a Tesla Model S will lose—on average—less than 15 percent of its battery capacity over the average 150,000-mile (250,000-km) life of a vehicle.

    from here:
    Tesla Model S battery life: what the data show so far

    which is sourced from here:
    Tesla Model S battery degradation data | Steinbuch


    So rather than trusting a right wing zealot who happens to own an oil company, try actually looking at things yourself

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    Question is ,battery capacity loss is not equally problematic.......and can be tolerated ,if you are happy to drop to 15 mph climbing a long hill.......On the flat,you are back up to 60 mph.......but how many drivers will put up with that........and I might add, I favour electric cars because it will be impossible for the young to make loud noises with them.......

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    Have you never heard bass heads rolling through your neighborhood?

    edit: just noticed you were in Australia, maybe they don't exist down there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Question is ,battery capacity loss is not equally problematic.......and can be tolerated ,if you are happy to drop to 15 mph climbing a long hill.......On the flat,you are back up to 60 mph.......but how many drivers will put up with that........and I might add, I favour electric cars because it will be impossible for the young to make loud noises with them.......
    Honestly thats not what you would see intill near the end stage of battery capacity loss. Theres so much spare performance in something like a tesla's battery pack punch for acceleration would probably not be overly noticeable till very near the end of pack life, its the gradual range loss that would bite long before that. That said on a nominal 200,000 mile car life, thats only 1000 cycles on the battery and thats not a major issue these days, even less of a issue if you keep it in the sweet 80% charged range and only fill to 100% thoes times your really going to use it soon! Considering the maintenance you save over a IC engine in that time too IMHO batteries are just about were there good enough this will become common.

    Warren-ties on solar are IMHO not a issue over here, the basic bits per our standards are holding up just fine, that said i very much like a roof mounted array of just panels, any kinda interface modules on the panels just adds to there expected failure rate. Far better to have a separate inverter that can be replaced if - when needed largely do to capacitor ageing than large complex panel and inverter units.

    Over here damaged panels just go straight in the ewaste LCD display screen waste stream, shred em, separate the glass and metals from the plastics and they just become normal waste streams at that point. Your dead right, the latest pannels have very little alumnium in them and relatively speaking minimal copper too. The actual silicone cells are tiny mass wise and simply end up in the crushed glass waste that over here gets used in tarmac.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    First, if you want to be persuasive rather than dogmatic, watch your sources:

    The IER is the successor organization to the Institute for Humane Studies of Texas, an advocacy group established in 1984 by billionaire businessman and political donor Charles Koch.[2] After failing to pay the Texas state franchise tax, IHST lost its charter in 1989, and was later rebranded as the Institute for Energy Research, or IER, under the presidency of Robert L. Bradley Jr., the former director of public policy analysis for Enron.[2] IER began by distributing quarterly reports to a small but growing list of donors in the early 1990s and eventually expanded its publishing capabilities to include highly publicized studies. It was not until 2001 when Bradley secured funding to make IER a full-time organization. In 2007, IER was moved to Washington, D.C. where it transformed itself into an energy think tank producing research and analysis on global energy markets.[3]

    Second, aside from the source, this is an unremarkable piece of junk, and, the way you tell is this:

    "Electric vehicle batteries typically must be replaced every seven to 10 years for smaller vehicles and three to four for larger ones, such as buses and vans. "

    source? apparently their imagination

    how about this:

    Data appears to show that capacity remains between 90 and 95 percent, on average, even at 150,000 km (93,000 miles).

    There are individual data points scattered on both sides of that line, of course.

    But, overall, the data offer some basis for confidence that a Tesla Model S will lose—on average—less than 15 percent of its battery capacity over the average 150,000-mile (250,000-km) life of a vehicle.

    from here:
    Tesla Model S battery life: what the data show so far

    which is sourced from here:
    Tesla Model S battery degradation data | Steinbuch


    So rather than trusting a right wing zealot who happens to own an oil company, try actually looking at things yourself
    That's the whole issue: who and what do you trust for a source? In any debate, and any 'proof', there always seems to be some variables glossed over, missed or manipulated. That's my beef with everybody's Youtube video on any subject whatsoever, none of them ever address the entire picture.

    We need a better debate structure of some sort in order to figure anything out. Kind of like a wikipedia of arguments. It might take years to actually complete an argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenton View Post
    Have you never heard bass heads rolling through your neighborhood?
    Like billy bass?

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    Similar level of annoyance and sound pollution.

    Urban Dictionary: Bass head

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuFlungDung View Post
    That's the whole issue: who and what do you trust for a source? In any debate, and any 'proof', there always seems to be some variables glossed over, missed or manipulated. That's my beef with everybody's Youtube video on any subject whatsoever, none of them ever address the entire picture.

    We need a better debate structure of some sort in order to figure anything out. Kind of like a wikipedia of arguments. It might take years to actually complete an argument.
    When you use as a source an organization that is setup by a person in who's economic interest it is to create FUD around Ev's, and that particular article is wrapped around unsupported facts, you are not persuasive.

    It is the kind of article that might raise a personal interest, like 'hmm, wonder what that is about' resulting in further investigation.
    To which the obvious conclusion is 'oh, well that is BS'
    Not something to my mind to use as a talking point

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    Lithium is mostly a metallic salt that is evaporated from dense brines on high-altitude desert planes several hundred miles from people or cities.
    In deserts.
    The evaporation causes no extra contamination, and the same ponds are re-used continuously.

    Lithium is not toxic - lead or cobalt are very much more toxic and concentrate in food chains.
    Very little lithium is used by mass or volume or value.

    The current best-tech-now-shipping Tesla Model 3 packs use about half cobalt vs the best-new 8:1:1 chemistries from other suppliers, globally.
    No-one is shipping 8:1:1 yet in volume for auto / traction use.

    Example_ 100 kW pack in 5/2019.
    27 kg cobalt for "others". 2-5 kg lithium. Alu is recycled.
    Tesla approx 4-7 kg cobalt.

    The next-gen tsla battery, already in tests and proven, uses zero cobalt.
    Multiple anecdotes, references.

    Since tesla can do it, 2019, within a few years 3-6 all others will also gravitate to a low-zero cobalt battery.
    Because cobalt is a conflict metal with limited global production expansion (byproduct), very little global availability for scaling, and is expensive, and is toxic.

    But the process will take several years, 3-6 years for start of *some* volume production in auto scales.
    Exactly zero providers (ex-pana/tsla) of battery cells have extensive low-cobalt chemistry studies, experience, and battery-aging data.

    They are ALL rushing studies to get better cells, in energy density, longevity, thermals, C rates, costs.
    LG chem, Samsung, CALB china, BYD, new entrants with venture capital and exotics, everyone.

    It is obvious that one, or more, or many, can probably equal and perhaps pass the current pana/tsla packs in overall minimax performance/costs/scale in base tech or a new magic formula of some kind, at some point in time (likely far).
    Given multi-100M$ research budgets as now.

    The problem all global competitors face is that tsla/pana is already about 20-30x larger than the next-best competitor (advanced high energy motive cells).
    And that tsla is scaling about 100% y/y exponential production increase, about 25 GWh 2018 / 240 k cars.
    And the current tsla/pana base factory is about a 3B$ investment, in a huge factory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    When you use as a source an organization that is setup by a person in who's economic interest it is to create FUD around Ev's, and that particular article is wrapped around unsupported facts, you are not persuasive.

    It is the kind of article that might raise a personal interest, like 'hmm, wonder what that is about' resulting in further investigation.
    To which the obvious conclusion is 'oh, well that is BS'
    Not something to my mind to use as a talking point
    FYI Im not qouteing any sources, feel free to fact check my posts, Battery life cycle and state of discharge - charge effects are well known, diffrent manufacturers put the exact points - values in diffrent bands, but the technology and cycle raes fundamentally work at this point. Sure i do not as yet have full size lithium battery based automotive use experience, but i have been running the exact same technology drives, motors and batteries at far greater and sustained as in multi minute power levels in the model world for a long time. Again i have and run what are in effect minature Variable frequency drives at power densities at and north of 90Kw per Kg of drive. Thats double a fucking tesla.

    Hanermo, Lithiums a fucking metal, its natural found in a salt like state that is readily extracted using industry proven brine based extraction methods, also in most places they get a lot of other very usefull metals too from the same brine. Theres no shortage of lithium on earth, its always been pretty cheap, now theres a mass use that cost has risen, the very reactivity of lithium though makes most of its naturally occuring forms soluble, so the problem - cost is that you don't find it in nice big lumps in certain areas like say coal or iron ore.

    please don't start yet more ass kissing tesla bullshit and destroy yet anouther thread, provide provable facts that you can back up with solid physics so the stupid old fogie IC bregrade can get left in the dust and go the same way as the dinosaurs, the steam engine and any other fucking technology that ceases to continue to evolve or fundamentally be limited by a max efficiency level in the low 40% range. Anyone that says efficent about a liquid fuel burning means of transport needs a kick in the nuts, electric motor and battery technology beat that over 100 yeas ago in a full charge - discharge cycle, the battery storage has always been the electric road block till these last few years.

    Adding more bulshit to the mix does not help, and if you don't like Cobalt, what the fuck do you use to cut metals with in this game as a alloying - binding element? Seriously i want to know, me i use cobalt in drill bits, both carbide and HSS and in damn near any other cutter i can lay me hands on, sure it may kill me, but so would starveing to death whilst trying to earn a living cutting 304 stainless with only carbon steels. Equally its probably worth adding assuming your 26Kg is about right thats only 3 liters of the stuff, ie less than even a tiny "American gallon" bucket full!

    Right now what makes a electric car great is its got all the advantages of a horse in being able to convert sunlight to usable goods and people carrage with no need for the big oil industry parasite mix. You can buy some solar panels, you can buy a electric car, and you don't then have to go to war in Iraq to get any go go juice! Same as a horse can be fed food you can grow yourself.

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  25. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenton View Post
    Similar level of annoyance and sound pollution.

    Urban Dictionary: Bass head
    One is annoying, look at this guy with the wall of fish, WTF

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    No bass heads ,but the political argument here has now shifted to whether you can tow a boat with an electric car...........I suspect next issue is can you fit giant tyres to your lekky SUV and tear up the beach,like any free world person should be able to do........In the meantime ,the Chinese govt is getting peeved by the continuous gratuitous insults,and also by Clive Palmer remaining unarrested.

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    I don´t get the hostility.
    All my facts are proven by currently shipping products, and specs from every major car and vfd producer on earth.

    The global cobalt comes mostly from congo, as a byproduct of other mining.
    Cobalt alone is not mined anywhere in qty.

    Where EV batteries become important in terms of global motive sales, the battery chemistry re: cobalt, and the global supply of cobalt are critical-path gating factors.

    Ie there is not enough cobalt produced in the world to make lots more good EV cars, with 80 kWh batteries, using current 8:2:2 chemistries.
    There is no way cobalt production can increase in a meaningful way, at reasonable cost, in less than 6 years, and so far never as far as sota today.

    Current global EV production is about 2M+ units per year, and about half is china with mostly poor lifepo4 chemistries and poor battery packs (improving fast).

    With currently-shipping old chemistries, VW et al + Big Auto (US) and china EVs do not have enough cobalt to make 5-8M++ good EVs per year, within 2 years, say by 2021.
    Simply cannot be done, no matter what.

    And the battery chemistry needs major proof and aging tests, before selling large-scale EVs with 80 kW batteries.
    And this takes 1-2 years.
    If any major auto maker sold say 400k EVs per year, for 2 years, and the batteries were to fade in year 4 or 5, they would go bankrupt.
    Even at 100$/kWh (pack), 8000$ marginal production costs + recalls for 800k cars would be too expensive for even VW or Toyota to pay for.


    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post

    Hanermo, Lithiums a fucking metal, its natural found in a salt like state that is readily extracted using industry proven brine based extraction methods, also in most places they get a lot of other very usefull metals too from the same brine. Theres no shortage of lithium on earth, its always been pretty cheap, now theres a mass use that cost has risen, the very reactivity of lithium though makes most of its naturally occuring forms soluble, so the problem - cost is that you don't find it in nice big lumps in certain areas like say coal or iron ore.

    please don't start yet more ass kissing tesla bullshit and destroy yet anouther thread, provide provable facts that you can back up with solid physics so the stupid old fogie IC bregrade can get left in the dust and go the same way as the dinosaurs, the steam engine and any other fucking technology that ceases to continue to evolve or fundamentally be limited by a max efficiency level in the low 40% range. Anyone that says efficent about a liquid fuel burning means of transport needs a kick in the nuts, electric motor and battery technology beat that over 100 yeas ago in a full charge - discharge cycle, the battery storage has always been the electric road block till these last few years.

    Adding more bulshit to the mix does not help, and if you don't like Cobalt, what the fuck do you use to cut metals with in this game as a alloying - binding element?


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