Preparing to manufacture, and some big questions need answers

Guy Fawkes · Nov 4, 2018

Hey guys and gals! My first post here at Practical Machinist. I'm basically a newb at most everything I am currently undertaking, to be honest. My dad always told me, "Son, you gotta step outta your d@mn comfort zone!"

Boy did I. So I invented something awesome. Probably not world-changing awesome, but awesome enough to change the world of one little family if I can get it to market. And maybe a few others along the way, too.

So I have been pushing forward on this project for almost two years now, scraping together what meager cash I could save from my dead-end job. And I have finally ordered my first production model!

Suddenly I find myself with a ton of pressing questions, things to do, loose ends to tie up, and all those little things that until recently were mere blurry shadows of questions off in the distance. Now I need answers.

I put my trust in God and Google once again. If it wasn't for the wonders of the Internet I wouldn't have gotten this far!

So if you have a moment, I would like to pick the collective minds of this wonderful forum. I have many important questions indeed, but I would like to only ask one very important one with my first thread.

My product is a 2D design cut out of sheet metal. It is a camping stove, to be exact. Which means that the 2d panels assemble to create a 3D object. As I get closer to being able to actually offer these stoves for sale, protecting my intellectual property becomes the top priority.

Because of the nature of the invention, a patent might not be an option due to patent infringement possibilities. It's a series of interlocking panels that assemble to make a stove. Nothing really new there, so utility I believe is off the table. It's how I do it that is unique.

I know about patent pending protection and I'm not ruling it out, but my question is this: Is copyright protection a viable option for me? Might it be the better option?

I'm looking for the fastest way to market with the most protection I can afford. Really my biggest fear is that due to the simplicity of my design, it will be ripped off by a foreign manufacturer and I end up being undercut out of the market and lose my tailfeathers!

Thanks in advance for any opinions or advice you offer!

EmGo · Nov 7, 2018

Guy Fawkes said:
protecting my intellectual property becomes the top priority.

The old imaginary property scam again, eh ? There's no such thing, Jack. You ain't got shit to "protect".

Figure out a different way without falling into that imaginary property fantasy.

Bobw · Nov 7, 2018

protecting my intellectual property becomes the top priority.

No.. Your top priority is to make as much money as fast as you can before
somebody else copies your design.

My 2 cents, you need a trade mark.. A catchy name that perfectly describes your
product...

When you get cut, do you ask for a "First Aid Bandage with a non-stick pad"???
NO!! You ask for a Band-Aid...

When you want to clean the wax out of your ears do you ask for a "Cotton Swab"..
NO!!! You ask for a Q-tip.

Do you blow your snoz into "Facial Tissues"? Nope.. Kleenex..

When I first got into this game, I had no idea what a manual mill was, I thought
a manual mill was actually called a "Bridgeport"..

You need to be the Kotex/Band-aid/Bridgeport of the whatever,whatever,whatever Grill
market you are trying to capture..

In my personal opinion, I think that is where real value is.. A brand, a name, customer
service and quality...

If all you want to do is protect your "intellectual property rights", you better have some deep pockets.

PDW · Nov 7, 2018

Guy Fawkes said:
I'm looking for the fastest way to market with the most protection I can afford. Really my biggest fear is that due to the simplicity of my design, it will be ripped off by a foreign manufacturer and I end up being undercut out of the market and lose my tailfeathers!

If that can happen, it will happen.

Consider what your business aim is - you can go for the really high margin approach planning on high unit profits (and guarantee someone will see an advantage in undercutting you). Or at the other end you can go for cost of production plus sufficient margin to make reasonable money but difficult to have someone undercut you.

A copy to market generally has to be significantly better for the same price point or of pretty much equal quality at a lower price point, else why would anyone buy the copy? Assuming you're not a total dick to deal with that is - there are some companies I'd refuse to buy from on principle.

Trying to maintain some form of exclusivity via law suits is going to enrich the lawyers but probably not you.

PDW

Mcgyver · Nov 7, 2018

There are lots of different kinds of IP, a patent is just one, i.e. brand, know how, trade secrets, customer list and so on. A patent will be difficult and expensive to obtain and do you little good. The only good it will likely do is if this thing is just so earth shattering, like you invented the internet and Bigco wants it, it becomes valuable with a patent. You can't do much to stop infringement, but Bigco can. I'd wager that doesn't happen often with camp stoves

anyway, doesn't mean you can't do it, just execute. Concentrate on sales and brand, create the buzz, create sales. By the time it has enough velocity someone offshore notices you should have created enough value in your own IP, like the brand and sales channels.

EmGo · Nov 7, 2018

Mcgyver said:
By the time it has enough velocity someone offshore notices you should have created enough value in your own IP, like the brand and sales channels.

Doesn't need to be offshore, hip. Everyone I know who has created products has had them copied by other places in the US. And that goes way back - during the heyday of smaller mfg companies, like the 1800's, you'll find six places in the US making pretty much the same thing.

Patents were never intended to protect stamped steel boxes. It's only recently that people started thinking "Ooooh, I made a 45* bend ! It's my idea ! I own it !"

Ridiculous.

Bobw · Nov 7, 2018

Mcgyver said:
Concentrate on sales and brand, create the buzz, create sales. By the time it has enough velocity someone offshore notices you should have created enough value in your own IP, like the brand and sales channels.

Here is a link to a site of guy I know..

DISC-IT - The Only Outdoor Cooking Device You Will Ever Need

Its not a grill, but its in the food cooking category. Its a Disco, basically
a Mexican Wok.. Its based on that slightly concave disc on a farm plow..
I can go down to any of the chile stands here in town or to the flea market
and buy a generic one for $75, cheap, low quality.. Pretty much a POS...

Back story. From what I remember and was told, him and his Dad, both fab guys
were screwing around in the garage and made one of these things.. A few people
said, "Hey, that's cool, you should make some and try to sell them". So
IIRC, they made 7 of them I think, and got a booth at a craft fair or something,
and they sold all 7 of them within a half an hour on Saturday morning... And
they had the booth for Sunday also... So they closed up went home and damn near
killed themselves working through the night to make more for Sunday...

From there it snowballed... The last time I asked him how many he had sold was
about 7 years ago, and he was at 14,000. Since then, he has added all kinds of stuff,
a smaller version for campers, flat tops, chile roasters, smokers etc...

He's had some pretty big corporate contracts, he made a bunch of them for Budweiser
and Heineken. I really wanted a Bud one, but he couldn't sell them...

So anyways... HYPE!!! He does tons of shows, State Fair, Balloon Festival, Camping
Expos, trade shows.... All that kind of stuff... He's done radio ads, usually right
before Father's day... Give aways... I know he did a lot of charity stuff, he did
some bowling thing for a while(I think it was bowling), and he was doing a big charity cook off. 200 people
show up with their Disc-Its that they had already bought, pay money, and cook stuff...

He does, or at least did, a weekly cooking show.. Not on TV (Though he has been on
local TV).

Hype and Buzz.... push push push, sell sell sell...

Pick your design, or create your own...

And yes, I have one, its pretty sweet.

Gordon B. Clarke · Nov 8, 2018

Guy Fawkes said:
Hey guys and gals! My first post here at Practical Machinist. I'm basically a newb at most everything I am currently undertaking, to be honest. My dad always told me, "Son, you gotta step outta your d@mn comfort zone!"

Boy did I. So I invented something awesome. Probably not world-changing awesome, but awesome enough to change the world of one little family if I can get it to market. And maybe a few others along the way, too.

So I have been pushing forward on this project for almost two years now, scraping together what meager cash I could save from my dead-end job. And I have finally ordered my first production model!

Suddenly I find myself with a ton of pressing questions, things to do, loose ends to tie up, and all those little things that until recently were mere blurry shadows of questions off in the distance. Now I need answers.

I put my trust in God and Google once again. If it wasn't for the wonders of the Internet I wouldn't have gotten this far!

So if you have a moment, I would like to pick the collective minds of this wonderful forum. I have many important questions indeed, but I would like to only ask one very important one with my first thread.

My product is a 2D design cut out of sheet metal. It is a camping stove, to be exact. Which means that the 2d panels assemble to create a 3D object. As I get closer to being able to actually offer these stoves for sale, protecting my intellectual property becomes the top priority.

Because of the nature of the invention, a patent might not be an option due to patent infringement possibilities. It's a series of interlocking panels that assemble to make a stove. Nothing really new there, so utility I believe is off the table. It's how I do it that is unique.

I know about patent pending protection and I'm not ruling it out, but my question is this: Is copyright protection a viable option for me? Might it be the better option?

I'm looking for the fastest way to market with the most protection I can afford. Really my biggest fear is that due to the simplicity of my design, it will be ripped off by a foreign manufacturer and I end up being undercut out of the market and lose my tailfeathers!

Thanks in advance for any opinions or advice you offer!

Getting ideas is almost always easier than selling them. Are you thinking of making yourself or by using suppliers?

I can't beat the advice given by Bobw but rather than bothering to patent go for good quality and something people will want to buy because it does what it is supposed to do and looks good. Even if it gets copied the good customers prefer originals to copies.

Good luck - you'll need it.

Chip Chester · Nov 8, 2018

OP, check out this guy on Craigslist:

TAKE A PART FIRE PIT - general for sale - by owner

You'll find yourself in competition with guys who have unused plasma or waterjet time, and access to quantity discounts on steel. Or the time and patience to use drops from other jobs that can be arranged as a 'sheet' for mass unsupervised cutting. Perhaps one of these 'guys' will be someone you chose as a supplier. Have a plan for that, whatever it is.

A few years ago, there was a guy in town making a killing on high-sided trailer dumpsters for remodelers. Went back to the same welding shop month after month ordering new trailer dumpsters. After a year, the welding shop owner caught on, made trailers at his cost, undercut the pricing and took over the market. Original guy is still in business, but doesn't need to order new trailers any more...

There are also threads on here from years past about guys selling products/designs to places like Cabela's, Bass Pro Shop, etc. Think carefully before going down that path.

DDoug · Nov 8, 2018

Bobw said:
And yes, I have one, its pretty sweet.

That's got to be the BF ugliest thing I've seen in a long, long time.

As well as full of hazards, sharp pointing things, things lawyers just love.

Search

Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web

Search

Preparing to manufacture, and some big questions need answers

Guy Fawkes

Plastic

EmGo

Diamond

Bobw

Diamond

PDW

Diamond

Mcgyver

Diamond

EmGo

Diamond

Bobw

Diamond

Gordon B. Clarke

Banned

Chip Chester

Diamond

DDoug

Diamond

Similar threads