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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Wishful thinking john,

    Any conflict would be completed within a week.
    And be the start of World War 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    In fact ,the low inflation environment so commented on the past decade or so has nothing to do with clever economics and everything to do with goods made at cheap asian labour rates ...not only cheap rates in the factory ,but cheap rates in the street outside ,and at city council .Low overheads....What Chinese factory is hit with a $25,000 a year levy from the sewerage authority ,or a massive surcharge for excess usage of the street outside the factory.Or truck curfews ,or 4 ton limits on "residental" streets ,only a few years ago factories turned into trendy residences by crooked developers happy to bribe councillors and planning comuittees.
    Yeah....just as an outsider looking in....Australia has evolved into a LaLa land. I was shocked when the newly elected PM just decided to seize everyone’s gun and then destroy them. Very bad sign in my opinion. Not that I support the lunatics who want to show up at the capital with an AR15 strapped on their shoulders to demonstrate their rights. We see a lot of that in America and those morons are only hurting my right to bear arms in my opinion. But that said....I was shocked when that PM of Australia pulled that crap.
    I was thinking about moving to Australia back when I was in my late 20’s
    Sure glad I didn’t do that. Australia is truly in La La land. Everyone has their heads up in the clouds and are oblivious to the threats to their democracy. Putin and China are working overtime to destroy and seize power of the Western World.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    If the only difference were only labor then is that to mean the difference in labor cost is the only way to make a profit?
    One of the major problems with China is they are really polluting the hell out of the world. It’s the Wild West capitalism under strong arm communism. Bastards are fueling the slaughter of elephants at a shocking rate because ignorant bastards think eating ivory dust makes them strong. Where the hell is the Chinese Communist Party ? Stupid bastards are allowing wet markets that sell virus infected bats... For Gods sakes.!!
    China wants the worlds trade....but they are not playing on a fair level. And do not buy their bullshit line of communist party propaganda that they can’t control the wet markets which sell bats.
    If the Communist Party of China (CPC) — founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China (PRC)....can find enough people to sit in front of computers to monitor all social media then that CPC...or the more political correct moniker of theirs...the RPC can surely find people to shut down wet markets selling bats. Bats are great creatures for pest control. They eat tons of Mosquitos a day. But for Gods sake they are virus carriers.
    The damned CHINESE PRC are screwing the entire worlds population with their bad behavior. They pollute the worlds environment....and we have to eventually breath the same air. They are now spreading a world wide pandemic. Screw the PRC. The western world needs to get together with force and demand that the PRC regulate and govern their country as a good neighbor if they want the world’s business.
    This is what has to happen. The world is a smaller place now and the Chinese have not been behaving as good neighbors. Manufacturing is such an easy thing to move almost anywhere. But the world must demand a fair playing field.

    Since we just had Earth Day....then it’s about time the world demand that the Communist Chinese Government not pollute at will to underprice the worlds manufacturing base. It is pure bullshit. All that mercury and Hexavalent chromium they are dumping in rivers eventually finds its way into the worlds fish....same fish we may one day eat. The worlds governments need to do their jobs to demand a fair playing field from the Chinese and that includes the requirement that the Chinese Manufacturing can not pollute to underprice the rest of us.

    The the PRC are actually behaving like Ignorant Colonist of the colonialism days 200 years ago. Sure, 200 years ago we all dumped pollution into rivers. But we now know what happens when we do that. We know the pollution finds its way into our bodies and causes cancers. For Gods sakes. Of course they can sell cheaper stuff....but it’s not because of labor. It’s because of government subsidies and no regulations. The clouds of coal dust actually find its way to California sometimes. Screw them . The United Nations must get some balls to say no to the Chinese total disregard and disrespect for the rest of us. Not only are the Chinese putting everyone out of work....but they are also polluting at will. And the Communist Government doesn’t give a damned. Because they want to put us out of work. Because that weakens Western Governments. And that is the true ultimate goal. Wake up people. Get your heads out of the clouds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim9lives View Post
    Yeah....just as an outsider looking in....Australia has evolved into a LaLa land. I was shocked when the newly elected PM just decided to seize everyone’s gun and then destroy them. Very bad sign in my opinion. Not that I support the lunatics who want to show up at the capital with an AR15 strapped on their shoulders to demonstrate their rights. We see a lot of that in America and those morons are only hurting my right to bear arms in my opinion. But that said....I was shocked when that PM of Australia pulled that crap.
    I was thinking about moving to Australia back when I was in my late 20’s
    Sure glad I didn’t do that. Australia is truly in La La land. Everyone has their heads up in the clouds and are oblivious to the threats to their democracy. Putin and China are working overtime to destroy and seize power of the Western World.
    “Australia has evolved into a LaLa land.” Amen to that one. They want to be oblivious to the bad entanglement which China has brought and that will only get worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim9lives View Post
    One of the major problems with China is they are really polluting the hell out of the world.
    Basically burning coal to fuel their economy. Darn those folks, they're trying to get ahead of us.
    What to do: End THE WAR ON COAL in the US, Give the coal industry lots of taxpayer money
    to try to get americans to burn more coal than the PRC. Make it cheaper than oil or NG. (ha)

    Do what trump says END THE WAR ON COAL and all wil be well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Basically burning coal to fuel their economy. Darn those folks, they're trying to get ahead of us.
    What to do: End THE WAR ON COAL in the US, Give the coal industry lots of taxpayer money
    to try to get americans to burn more coal than the PRC. Make it cheaper than oil or NG. (ha)

    Do what trump says END THE WAR ON COAL and all wil be well.
    It’s such insanity that it would be funny if Idiot in Chief wasn’t serious. The guy is a moron.
    Oh...wait. In Rex Tillerson’s words. Trump is...”A FUCKING MORON !!

    BUT..he’s also an enigma in my opinion. I just can’t totally figure him out. He is the first president to point out the unfair trade with China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim9lives View Post
    He is the first president to point out the unfair trade with China.
    Which tells me he's very different to the previous.
    They were all "in the club".
    He's not. He sticks out. Not afraid to point things out.

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    or simply just parrot talkin points without any actual knowledge on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Its a comparison of costs, labour and shipping, but any difference in input costs will affect it. Those are two obvious ones. Another cost difference that should probably be included is management - making things in China adds to that, distance, language, culture, travel add to the cost. You can sort of mentally lump that in with shipping in the sense that is part of the cost of the goods to your local market. If raw materials or energy were different here or there that too would affect it. . ..
    There's are a couple other factors in the comparison.

    As suggested, labor costs, given today's automation, are now a relatively small part of manufacturing cost. Last I looked (long time ago), touch labor in auto manufacturing was something like 5% of costs. And that's likely the highest cost manufacturing labor on the planet.

    One of my habits was to buy at least 100 shares of the stock of any significant client. And one thing I noticed, among the larger ones, is how much of C-level compensation was linked to measures like return on equity, sales per employee, and the like. Turns out that by far the easiest way to game those measures would be to sell off parts of manufacturing, fire employees, etc. So some of the impetus to set up a company's own subsidiary supply divisions, then outsource, then just buy from abroad was purely gaming the bonuses.

    I also saw that a lot of CAD purchases along the line of "total product and process definition" were motivated by the notion that it would be easy to move manufacturing wherever it was cheapest.

    Turns out it's harder to capture the sum total of manufacturing expertise in a solid model, bill of materials, and assorted notes. So, quality almost always plummeted for a year or two when production was moved. In some cases I saw a double hit, as one CEO moved production to either a US supplier or Mexico; and the next picked up things and moved manufacturing to China. Sometimes quality permanently plummeted. There's an advantage to having design engineers and manufacturing engineers co-located.

    So, much of our loss of manufacturing wasn't motivated by either real costs, quality, or responsiveness to customers - but getting assets and employees off the books to make numbers look better.

    Then there is the issue of automation. Manufacturing is going to be cheapest for many products -- not so much where it's cheapest to hire people -- but where the CNC tools and automation are newest and most productive. Turns out that while US manufacturers often have shockingly old facilities, China has been automating more jobs out of existence than the US.

    So, why haven't our companies invested as much (compared to, say, Germany or even China) in more productive equipment -- and why hasn't our government been adquately investing in infrastructure?

    Seems at least some of the reason also comes down to financial gaming (another is put invest overseas because of stupid tax breaks and also because that's where many customers are). When Ford, GM, and GE saw they could make more money in credit operations than productivity improvement, that's what they did. When investors saw they could "make" more money in Enron, Goldman Sachs, 2x-priced health care etc. -- that's where the investment went. Meanwhile, other countries may have industrial policies that make it more affordable for their manufacturers to invest in new equipment and facilities.

    I'll add, relative to the oil price thread woven into all this -- if people who actually needed oil and wanted to secure it for the future determined the market -- then they would have the storage they need and prices would be more stable. The reason oil can "sell" at minus $40 a barrel is because of rampant speculation and people trying to make money off money. Much the same thing when Goldman Sachs "invested" in aluminum storage facilities in order to game the price of aluminum. Goldman wasn't providing "market liquidity" in aluminum - they were holding actual manufacturing users hostage.

    Wouldn't be surprised that something similar occurs in agricultural products (betting on futures without the slightest desire to actually take possession of the food); though I don't have enough experience to know where or how.

    Someone earlier speculated, perhaps this thread, that while we don't have a king or dictator in charge, we do have mammon. Take a look at many of our industries (finance, pharma, defense, insurance, real estate, etc.) and it's pretty clear - at least to me - that "financialization" has distorted our economy and hollowed out much of what used to be the greatest value-producing economy in the world.

    Be nice if we noticed -- and stopped doing that.

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    It's surprising (or is it?) how countries tackle the corona virus. Some seem to do better than others but is anyone doing it right?

    ‘Sadness’ and Disbelief From a World Missing American Leadership

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    “ Trying to find golden doodle breeders with puppies available right now means I finally know what it's like when traders complain about liquidity disappearing in times of crisis.”
    -Luke

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    Auto sales US.
    China saw a similar collapse.

    It would be interesting to see how the rebound is going there.

    95276b43-5f1d-4796-b3f3-67f67b4f45b3.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    It's surprising (or is it?) how countries tackle the corona virus. Some seem to do better than others but is anyone doing it right?

    ‘Sadness’ and Disbelief From a World Missing American Leadership
    This excerpt from that above linked article says it all.

    But nearly three decades later, America’s story is in trouble.

    The country that defeated fascism in Europe 75 years ago next month, and defended democracy on the continent in the decades that followed, is doing a worse job of protecting its own citizens than many autocracies and democracies.

    There is a special irony: Germany and South Korea, both products of enlightened postwar American leadership, have become potent examples of best practices in the coronavirus crisis.

    But critics now see America failing not only to lead the world’s response, but letting down its own people as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Auto sales US.
    China saw a similar collapse.

    It would be interesting to see how the rebound is going there.

    95276b43-5f1d-4796-b3f3-67f67b4f45b3.jpg
    Most places and countries you aren't allowed to move around much at present so not much need for a car. About the only planes I see in the sky these days are gliders and small private planes. Some industries are being hit very hard because of the corona virus. We certainly don't have our annual vacation abroad planned for 2020. Many countres have tourism as a major income source.

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    25years jobless claims.
    If this trends sideways from here...

    f3505b2d-dfd2-45f2-be61-822ac15a8ef3.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    “ Trying to find golden doodle breeders with puppies available right now means I finally know what it's like when traders complain about liquidity disappearing in times of crisis.”
    -Luke
    Gotta have the top people on the pandemic response, and they've all been drafted for that. I wish I was making that up.

    "Special Report: Former Labradoodle breeder was tapped to lead U.S. pandemic task force"

    Special Report: Former Labradoodle breeder was tapped to lead U.S. pandemic task force - Reuters

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    There's are a couple other factors in the comparison.

    As suggested, labor costs, given today's automation, are now a relatively small part of manufacturing cost. Last I looked (long time ago), touch labor in auto manufacturing was something like 5% of costs. And that's likely the highest cost manufacturing labor on the planet.

    One of my habits was to buy at least 100 shares of the stock of any significant client. And one thing I noticed, among the larger ones, is how much of C-level compensation was linked to measures like return on equity, sales per employee, and the like. Turns out that by far the easiest way to game those measures would be to sell off parts of manufacturing, fire employees, etc. So some of the impetus to set up a company's own subsidiary supply divisions, then outsource, then just buy from abroad was purely gaming the bonuses.

    I also saw that a lot of CAD purchases along the line of "total product and process definition" were motivated by the notion that it would be easy to move manufacturing wherever it was cheapest.

    Turns out it's harder to capture the sum total of manufacturing expertise in a solid model, bill of materials, and assorted notes. So, quality almost always plummeted for a year or two when production was moved. In some cases I saw a double hit, as one CEO moved production to either a US supplier or Mexico; and the next picked up things and moved manufacturing to China. Sometimes quality permanently plummeted. There's an advantage to having design engineers and manufacturing engineers co-located.

    So, much of our loss of manufacturing wasn't motivated by either real costs, quality, or responsiveness to customers - but getting assets and employees off the books to make numbers look better.

    Then there is the issue of automation. Manufacturing is going to be cheapest for many products -- not so much where it's cheapest to hire people -- but where the CNC tools and automation are newest and most productive. Turns out that while US manufacturers often have shockingly old facilities, China has been automating more jobs out of existence than the US.

    So, why haven't our companies invested as much (compared to, say, Germany or even China) in more productive equipment -- and why hasn't our government been adquately investing in infrastructure?

    Seems at least some of the reason also comes down to financial gaming (another is put invest overseas because of stupid tax breaks and also because that's where many customers are). When Ford, GM, and GE saw they could make more money in credit operations than productivity improvement, that's what they did. When investors saw they could "make" more money in Enron, Goldman Sachs, 2x-priced health care etc. -- that's where the investment went. Meanwhile, other countries may have industrial policies that make it more affordable for their manufacturers to invest in new equipment and facilities.

    I'll add, relative to the oil price thread woven into all this -- if people who actually needed oil and wanted to secure it for the future determined the market -- then they would have the storage they need and prices would be more stable. The reason oil can "sell" at minus $40 a barrel is because of rampant speculation and people trying to make money off money. Much the same thing when Goldman Sachs "invested" in aluminum storage facilities in order to game the price of aluminum. Goldman wasn't providing "market liquidity" in aluminum - they were holding actual manufacturing users hostage.

    Wouldn't be surprised that something similar occurs in agricultural products (betting on futures without the slightest desire to actually take possession of the food); though I don't have enough experience to know where or how.

    Someone earlier speculated, perhaps this thread, that while we don't have a king or dictator in charge, we do have mammon. Take a look at many of our industries (finance, pharma, defense, insurance, real estate, etc.) and it's pretty clear - at least to me - that "financialization" has distorted our economy and hollowed out much of what used to be the greatest value-producing economy in the world.

    Be nice if we noticed -- and stopped doing that.
    I just had to quote this cause I liked it so much

    well said

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Gotta have the top people on the pandemic response, and they've all been drafted for that. I wish I was making that up.

    "Special Report: Former Labradoodle breeder was tapped to lead U.S. pandemic task force"

    Special Report: Former Labradoodle breeder was tapped to lead U.S. pandemic task force - Reuters
    This is exactly what happens when cronyism overrides experience and expertise.

    We developed a diagnostic test at the CDC, so we can confirm if somebody has this,” Azar said. “We will be spreading that diagnostic around the country so that we are able to do rapid testing on site.”

    While coronavirus in Wuhan, China, was “potentially serious,” Azar assured viewers in America, it “was one for which we have a playbook.”

    Azar’s initial comments misfired on two fronts. Like many U.S. officials, from President Donald Trump on down, he underestimated the pandemic’s severity. He also overestimated his agency’s preparedness.

    As is now widely known, two agencies Azar oversaw as HHS secretary, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Food and Drug Administration, wouldn’t come up with viable tests for five and half weeks, even as other countries and the World Health Organization had already prepared their own.


    Clowns....”Trump and company” are CLOWNS.....They’re all incompetent clowns.

    Two years later, at the dawn of the coronavirus crisis, Azar appointed his most trusted aide and chief of staff, Harrison, as HHS’s main coordinator for the government’s response to the virus.

    Harrison, 37, was an unusual choice, with no formal education in public health, management, or medicine and with only limited experience in the fields. In 2006, he joined HHS in a one-year stint as a “Confidential Assistant” to Azar, who was then deputy secretary. He also had posts working for Vice President Dick Cheney, the Department of Defense and a Washington public relations company.

    Before joining the Trump Administration in January 2018, Harrison’s official HHS biography says, he “ran a small business in Texas.” The biography does not disclose the name or nature of that business, but his personal financial disclosure forms show that from 2012 until 2018 he ran a company called Dallas Labradoodles.


    I like dogs. I know some breeders. Nice people. But I sure as hell don’t want them making decisions for me on the medical front which may affect my health....Life and death health decisions which may affect the country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    There's are a couple other factors in the comparison.

    As suggested, labor costs, given today's automation, are now a relatively small part of manufacturing cost. Last I looked (long time ago), touch labor in auto manufacturing was something like 5% of costs. .
    Five percent? .....Someone has been feeding you very bad or very skewed information. 30 gets you more into the real world. 50 to 75 in some component suppliers. You are looking at voodoo math and not a balance sheet.
    You also say "touch labor" so you assume a plant can run without managers, supervisors, maintenance, trades and engineers to keep this automation working. Order processing, PC&L.
    "Overhead costs" that are labor pay rates. These are needed workers too without which you do not function.
    Also low labor costs mean cheaper buildings or added floor space, cheaper power, lower taxes to run a city, lower engineering and service costs.
    Payroll and benefits is a big factor in cost and without question my far biggest line item.
    One can build "monuments to automation" and I admit to being swept up in that curve, hopefully Toyota taught us a few things about that.

    I absolutely love automation and for sure love like nothing else designing and building it but not the end and be all.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Five percent? .....Someone has been feeding you very bad or very skewed information. 30 gets you more into the real world. 50 to 75 in some component suppliers. You are looking at voodoo math and not a balance sheet.
    You also say "touch labor" so you assume a plant can run without managers, supervisors, maintenance, trades and engineers to keep this automation working. Order processing, PC&L.
    "Overhead costs" that are labor pay rates. These are needed workers too without which you do not function.
    Also low labor costs mean cheaper buildings or added floor space, cheaper power, lower taxes to run a city, lower engineering and service costs.
    Payroll and benefits is a big factor in cost and without question my far biggest line item.
    One can build "monuments to automation" and I admit to being swept up in that curve, hopefully Toyota taught us a few things about that.

    Bob
    So CB the 30 percent and the 50-75%’s counts machinists, engineers, and would follow a definition of what counts as labor costs?

    When I see manufacturing still here and not easy things either I know that labor can not be the largest factor. Wages for skilled machinists vary depending on the size of the shop. There has to be money paid so that everyone profits. Managers , upper managers, salesmen and CEO’s are paid more.

    The machinists are considered essential today because if they are not working the upper management CEO and others who are not paid unless they get a bailout or a loan. Lol If it goes like it usually does then it just proves that our government does what we demand of them especially when everyone profits from it.

    When it gets to be so much that it begins to crush the working class paying off the debt from bailouts then in history once that point is reached the great unwashed stand up and take things into their control.

    I think people are over stressed today and frustrated as they hear help is on the way while their family are standing or driving through food lines.

    Opinions vary. Regardless things should be placed back on track somehow. After this my eyes glaze over when survival of the fittest is hashed about. Why because they were considered essential and too important to fail.

    Let the States declare bankruptcy. Let the State pensions lapse along with Medicare and SS. Then tell me how China will be sued! Thought y’all didn’t like lawyers I guess that means other people’s lawyers. Sue China? lol Lol lol

    Doesn’t that violate our non compete agreement?

    Yep this all is too much input when people are suffering. Voters shafted any help as it is slow and gets lost or diverted. Then to complain people who get twice their pay on unemployment are evil. The businesses likely got pretend loans. (Grants)

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