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    No one mentions that the US $100 bill is the standard store of funds for terrorist and criminal groups the world over.....consequently the US can print money without devaluing the currency...in other words ,economics no longer matter.....The US also has the peculiar ability of destroying vast amounts of printed money...for instance IS is considered to have taken some $1 billion with them when the various missiles and bombs blew them to pieces ,and the notes to confetti.....Then there is all the other printed money lost ,burnt,buried etc .

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodchuckNJ View Post
    Just remember who eliminated the gold standard.. Nixon. W/out congressional approval. W/out a law change.. Now they print money and that is another way they tax us.

    The politicians are so corrupt, they can't see the forest for the trees.
    The government had started stealth printing already, actually LBJ started it to pay for the Vietnam War and his Great Society (after a hostile encounter with the Fed Chair), other countries started to figure out what was going on and used their ability to demand transactions in gold, by that time Nixon was in office. The supply of gold had been reduced to a lower level than before FDR's gold grab in the thirties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rj1939 View Post
    The government had started stealth printing already, actually LBJ started it to pay for the Vietnam War and his Great Society (after a hostile encounter with the Fed Chair), other countries started to figure out what was going on and used their ability to demand transactions in gold, by that time Nixon was in office. The supply of gold had been reduced to a lower level than before FDR's gold grab in the thirties.
    More fucking facts?

    C'mon!

    Next thing you know, They'll be talking crazy talk about Obama sending pallets of cash to the Iranians or sumpin......oh wait.

    Nevermind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    More fucking facts?

    C'mon!

    Next thing you know, They'll be talking crazy talk about Obama sending pallets of cash to the Iranians or sumpin......oh wait.

    Nevermind.
    Well, how else are we supposed to get an excuse to spread liberty to them if we don't give them some funds with which to get into mischief with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    Well, how else are we supposed to get an excuse to spread liberty to them if we don't give them some funds with which to get into mischief with?
    During the Vietnam war, someone calculated that it would have been cheaper and more effective to give every person in Vietnam a Cadillac, then let them crash into each other ...

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    Default Recession?

    In reality, for the leading economic power in the world, the dollar amount of the national debt doesn’t matter much.

    What matters is the ~interest~ on the debt!!

    Currently about 15% of the annual budget...and growing.

    When the chickens do come home to roost, the significant part of society that depends on the government will really be the people feeling the pinch.

    Those of us who stand on their own two feet, earn their own living, manage their personal finances like an adult, ....we will be fine.

    It’s the “takers” that are going to be up the proverbial shit’s creek, with nary a paddle in sight.

    And the Dems just keep promising more and more to these folks, desperate for their votes...

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    STOP THE PRESS'

    Goldman Sachs warns of stock market correction. The investment bank told clients this week that a near-term correction, in which the market slides at least 10% from a recent peak, "is looking much more probable."

    Translation??

    DOW 30,000

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I like his conclusion, that the federal debt is only ! 64% of gdp. That's certainly reassuring !

    Is this the same as making $100,000 a year, so you borrow an additional $64,000 so you can live really high on the hog ?
    No, it's like you have an income of 100K, and have a mortgage for 64K on your house.

    Debt and deficit are 2 different things. The US is running about 4% deficit, so in your analogy you would be borrowing another 4K on top of your 100K income.

    That's about where the analogy breaks down, because you can't print money...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    When the chickens do come home to roost, the significant part of society that depends on the government will really be the people feeling the pinch.

    Those of us who stand on their own two feet, earn their own living, manage their personal finances like an adult, ....we will be fine.

    It’s the “takers” that are going to be up the proverbial shit’s creek, with nary a paddle in sight.
    welfare.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    No, it's like you have an income of 100K, and have a mortgage for 64K on your house.

    Debt and deficit are 2 different things. The US is running about 4% deficit, so in your analogy you would be borrowing another 4K on top of your 100K income.
    Or, to put it another way, adding that $4,000 per year to the mortgage, instead of paying it off.

    Where does that end up, in real life ?

    That's about where the analogy breaks down, because you can't print money...
    Well, you can, but living accomodations for people who do are less than wonderful

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    I started getting "free credit rating info" as a come on from one of my accounts. The other day, I got an email that my credit rating had gone up 15 points.............curious to see what changed (and somewhat bored at the time) I checked it........didn't really see anything that had changed of significance, but did see "some things that need improvement" They were chastising me over some accounts that had been closed..........they were for car loans that had been paid off.........I suppose in our debt fueled economy, I can't pay off a car without adversely effecting my credit? They were advising to never close an account.......wow.
    Debt=Wealth...........in our twisted world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    ...Or, to put it another way, adding that $4,000 per year to the mortgage, instead of paying it off.
    Right. Or maybe just forget the mortgage and call it a credit card, since the debt is unsecured, and just rolls over and never gets paid off.
    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Where does that end up, in real life ?
    We know where it ends for most countries- Greece, etc. There comes a point where the lenders are no longer willing to keep giving you cheap money.

    The US is unique in that we are the global reserve currency. No one knows at what point the ROW says "enough is enough".

    Japan has a debt load that is 200% of GDP, and they have not crashed and burned. They are also somewhat different than the US in that they hold most of that debt internally. So the interest payments just go back into their own economy and they don't have to borrow from other countries.

    The biggest problem for the US- at least in the short term- is when interest rates go back to historical norms, servicing the debt squeezes out other spending. ($23 Tn @ 5%, interest on the debt $1.15 Tn/yr)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    In reality, for the leading economic power in the world, the dollar amount of the national debt doesn’t matter much.

    What matters is the ~interest~ on the debt!!

    Currently about 15% of the annual budget...and growing.

    When the chickens do come home to roost, the significant part of society that depends on the government will really be the people feeling the pinch.

    Those of us who stand on their own two feet, earn their own living, manage their personal finances like an adult, ....we will be fine.

    It’s the “takers” that are going to be up the proverbial shit’s creek, with nary a paddle in sight.

    And the Dems just keep promising more and more to these folks, desperate for their votes...
    I stand on my own two feet and make my own living but I also understand that some people don't have two feet to stand on. Some day you will be old and so will I. Hopefully we will be able to take care of ourselves when that happens. God forbid something bad happens before we get real old. A friend of mine tripped over his dog when he was going down some steps into his basement last July. He crashed head first into the wall and is now a paralyzed from the neck down. Don't ever think for one minute that you are prepared to weather something like that on your own, no matter how well you have done in business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    In reality, for the leading economic power in the world, the dollar amount of the national debt doesn’t matter much.

    What matters is the ~interest~ on the debt!!

    Currently about 15% of the annual budget...and growing.

    When the chickens do come home to roost, the significant part of society that depends on the government will really be the people feeling the pinch.

    Those of us who stand on their own two feet, earn their own living, manage their personal finances like an adult, ....we will be fine.

    It’s the “takers” that are going to be up the proverbial shit’s creek, with nary a paddle in sight.

    And the Dems just keep promising more and more to these folks, desperate for their votes...
    I'd love to hear your definition of who the "takers" are in this country. Because from the above post and many others that you've polluted this board with, you clearly have no idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bucktruck View Post
    I'd love to hear your definition of who the "takers" are in this country. Because from the above post and many others that you've polluted this board with, you clearly have no idea.
    I'd like to hear that too. My guess is that toolcat thinks that people that work two minimum wage jobs and pay less taxes that he does are the takers but I'm willing to hear him out. I won't hold my breath though.

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    The confusing thing about the national debt is that "When the chickens do come home to roost" never seems to happen.
    In the 80's I was very concerned. Everyone predicted we were headed for disaster.
    By now all predictions from then said that the SSA would not be able to write checks and that system collapsed and gone.
    Same predictions on the medical side.
    All the arguments made perfect sense but none of it came true.
    After many, many decades of hearing that the sky is falling and the end is coming soon you begin to wonder.
    I agree that debt is usually bad, paying interest is usually bad, but micro economics like me and you and the macro version are different so comparing the USA to your home budget is simply apples and oranges.

    It certainly does look scary to any individual that budgets money. But, the world is not running away from US currency.
    Maybe it is just a matter of time, 40 years nothing moved so maybe 100-200 years if we continue our spending spree?
    Another 200 would put us at 400+, not record setting but not bad for an empire of immigrants.
    Personally I think it will go much longer but as above, guessing the future fails often.

    If the debt goes too high will the USA crash and burn? What will then rise out of the ashes?
    Easy to say we will go broke. Then what happens? Some states will still be rich, others not so much.
    If you see this end coming soon what is next after your doomsday?
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    The confusing thing about the national debt is that "When the chickens do come home to roost" never seems to happen. . . . Bob
    Far as I can tell is that this happens a bit like earthquakes here in California -- only with boom and bust cycles releasing the "energy" as a debt-fueled economy crashes. 2008 was the last one, but during the time I've been old enough to notice we had the 1973 oil crisis, another 1981 oil crisis, insider trading with Ivan Boesky and penny stock fraud with Michael Milken in the mid 80's, the Savings & Loan crisis around 1990, and the Dot.com bubble around 2000. The crises have been moving from the Middle East not giving us cheap oil to -- since the mid 80's -- some combination of outright financial fraud and wildly optimistic investors buying into those schemes.

    While none of these financial "earthquakes" have been the big one, they've all been painful. Not so much for the people who engineered them and got their millions to billions out, but middle to upper middle class citizens who've ended up paying the bills in terms of inflated dollars, lost jobs, abandoned pensions, higher taxes, Social Security not so realistically indexed to the cost of living, exponentially rising medical costs, and periodically crashing retirement accounts. One only has to look at the shrinking middle class and rising inequality to see the cumulative damage. Or, kids living with their parents and well past the time my generation had bought its second home.

    So far, we've (meaning the sort of relatively skilled people posting here) have kind of adjusted on the fly. Others haven't been as lucky or competent.

    As Jancolic notes, we've had the benefit of a dollar-denominated economy, still cheap oil after the interruptions (but an increasingly scary "debt" to our ecosystem), and a whole bunch of us still working rather than running Ponzi schemes. Most recently we've been racking up extraordinary debt (financial, social, environmental, global) to keep the appearances of good times running a bit longer.

    I'd point out that the current administration promised 4% annual growth and has managed what seems to be 3%. Funny thing, though, we've basically borrowed that 4% in terms of national debt and only gotten 3% growth for it. On top of that we've repatriated cash gone nowhere but to stock buybacks and juiced the economy of with low to no interest rates. Then we've failed to even stand still on infrastructure repair, environmental collapse, education vs. the rest of the world, rule of law and the "swamp" in DC. We're losing ground on healthcare, trust in institutions, and nuclear threats, There's no plan for the future or work in an AI/automated world. Having trashed alliances between democracies, despotic regimes are on the rise. These "good times" seem (to me) to be mainly due to borrowing from the future.

    I used to think we'd be smart enough to avoid the BIG ONE -- a financial, economic, environmental, and social disruption so great that it would destroy our democracy. These days, I'm not so sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    ...In the 80's I was very concerned. Everyone predicted we were headed for disaster.
    By now all predictions from then said that the SSA would not be able to write checks and that system collapsed and gone.
    Same predictions on the medical side.
    All the arguments made perfect sense but none of it came true.
    It was true- it's just actuarial accounting. The crisis was averted- in 1986, Reagan and the Congress passed the FICA reforms that put SS back into 75 year actuarial balance. Retirement age was pushed back, and FICA taxes were raised. The purpose was to front load the trust funds so that the baby boomers did not bankrupt the system.

    From that point until 2011, SS ran a surplus- which the Congress merrily spent. So today the obligations remain, but the trust funds are full of "special" treasuries that can only be sold back to the US Treasury.

    Translation, the money has to be replaced from general funds.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    If the debt goes too high will the USA crash and burn? What will then rise out of the ashes?
    Easy to say we will go broke. Then what happens? Some states will still be rich, others not so much.
    If you see this end coming soon what is next after your doomsday?
    Bob
    Until such a time as an alternative reserve currency is adopted, there isn't a lot of risk that US Treasuries will not stay in high demand. More so when our economy is strong, and the ROW is soft.

    But ultimately the debt will have to be inflated away, at least partially, and the Gov't will need to get it's act together, or the ROW will move away from dollars.

    The long term drivers are SS and Medicare- as we all know. But the chances of addressing that are zero, so not much we can do about it.

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    I've heard all my life how SS was going broke and would be broke by such and such date.....................I've never heard where FERS was having any money trouble...................FERS is the Congressional Pension Fund.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    Next thing you know, They'll be talking crazy talk about Obama sending pallets of cash to the Iranians or sumpin......oh wait.
    Nevermind.
    NIce try, it was that moron george w bush, and they want to iraq.

    Mission Accomplished!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    NIce try, it was that moron george w bush, and they want to iraq.

    Mission Accomplished!
    US sent plane with $400 million in cash to Iran - CNNPolitics

    Hmmmmm.

    I was unaware that the French looking John Kerry, was G.W.B.s Sec of State.

    BTW, Kerrey served in Viet Nam.


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