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  1. #21
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    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"People who want antiseptic air and water need to learn about "diminishing returns".
    Translation: they need to allow corporations to
    pollute with impunity.</font>[/QUOTE]Translation: Corporations cannot be trusted. They must be punished and beaten into servility for the greater good.

    I, Jim Rozen, will therefore indulge in black and white thinking in order to control these rogue entities so that they come under the control of elected elites so that I, Jim Rozen, can feel good about myself.

    You're being silly about this, Jim. There is a happy medium between letting Corporations socialize their business costs (unbridled pollution) and your Authoritarian schemes and plans.

    Diminishing Returns is a well known economic term. It's easy to be lavish with resources when you do not own them, do not suffer paying the bill and do not care if the consequences include loss of jobs.

    Indeed, you will resort to your tired old "Class Struggle" ideas and feel that behind every loss of work is "greed".

    Yet you ignore greed for power and control... probably because you got it yourself.

    Elite?

    Gene I've been against corporate power since the
    git-go. You know that. Everyone who posts here
    has that concept understood.

    The Elite in the US are the corporate execs and
    I've been railing against them for years. I
    suggest you need to re-think your diatribes if
    you believe I back the Elite.
    They are the elites of their companies. If Corporate America is so "elite" how did "Big Tobacco" lose the lawsuits? How did Ken Lay end up in jail?

    Why are so many well to do Americans going to Belize to escape the grasp of the IRS and Trial Attorneys? Why aren't they remaining here in America if they're so "elite"?

    There other kinds of elites; political dynasties such as the Kennedy and Clinton clans, the Bush Family, and so on. There are economic elites who are not Corporate execs, such as the Rockefellers, who control massive amounts of money and influence.

    Goldman Sachs, which controls the Chicago "carbon exchange" and which stands to make billions of dollars from "cap and trade" non-sense. At your expense, and the expense of future generations of Americans.

    You do their bidding, Jim, when you empower them with these.... laws... that you propose. You give them influence and money. You aid their cause, which is dominating you and crushing competition.

    You lack the imagination to see the damage that you do, because you're so busy waving the bloody shirt of "Greed" while carrying water for far greedier people.

    You are a good dog, Jim. Have some Turkey.

    Gene

  2. #22
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    Please explain how regulating corporations
    empowers them. All ears here.

    Sure there's a gradation in environmental
    protection. At the moment the EPA has been
    totally gutted by the bush adminstration.

    Pendulum is swung hard over to your right
    at the moment gene. You can ask but it can't
    go any further unless you pass laws requiring
    citizens to allow free access for corporations
    to homeowners' lands, so they can dump even
    more waste for even less money.

    Don't ask for something you already have. Does
    not really make sense.

    The question gene isn't why was ken lay and jeffy
    skilling prosecuted. The question is why did
    it take so LONG for kenny boy to get caught?

    Gene they had the president rooting for them.

    They were working on crooked schemes for YEARS
    and nobody said 'boo.' Honestly I'm suprised
    at you gene, using *them* as your example. They
    made so much money even though they were caught,
    it's amazing. Billions.

    You said that I was exaggerating before, about
    corporate exectives raping the economy out of
    billions of dollars. Well you just proved
    my point.

    Thanks.

    Jim

  3. #23
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    At the moment the EPA has been
    totally gutted by the bush adminstration.
    Totally gutted? More hyperbole, more demagoguery.... pathetic. You need to put down the New York Times and turn off CNN. Don't listen to Limbaugh but for pete's sakes talk to people!

    What was the recent long thread on new EPA regulations concerning ground level ozone? What of the ban on two stroke engines for weed wackers? What of the recent struggle in the Klamath basin that pitted farmers against a damn fish! What of the recent wildfires in the western US, caused in part by EPA mandated land use practices?

    Ain't no "gutting" going on here, Jim. Maybe Bush isn't as aggressive as Mr. Clinton, but he's not "gutting" anything. I still can't buy R-12 over the counter. I still can't drive my car down the street without an emissions sticker. I pay a little more for electricity because the EPA has rammed "mercury" emissions down our throats due to a lawsuit.

    I say that the EPA is alive and well, thank you.

    I guess when you say "Gut" you mean that Bush tossed out the arsenic in ground water regulations and refuses to implement "global warming" pseudo science onto us?

    Kind of the same logic that if an agency only gets a five percent budget increase instead of a ten percent budget increase then someone is "gutting" them?

    I guess if you only got a three percent wage increase instead of a five percent wage increase that means you got a pay cut? Well, maybe with inflation... too bad for your "legal tender", thank Roosevelt for that one, Jim.

    I'm a being a bit "too logical" here? Too much "Logorhea" going on here at PM?

    Please explain how regulating corporations
    empowers them. All ears here.
    Corporations come in all sizes, Jim.

    Little Corporations have trouble adhering to regulations that indirectly benefit big corporations. They can't necessarily afford experts, lobbyists and, well, the excess money to afford bribes and graft.

    Big business can afford all of that and a lot more. They can afford to buy politicians. They can afford tax breaks, special "free trade zones" that spare them from import tarrifs, and a whole host of other goodies. Things that make them work a lot less harder to stay ahead of these "upstarts".

    Regulation thus gives big Corporations a huge helping hand against their greatest threat - competition.

    What's killing GM, Jim? Sure, it's union benefits that are beyond reason. Sure it's mandates that drive their cars towards a market segment that they don't do well in.

    Toyota is hurting GM, Jim. GM can't reach across the Pacific Ocean like they could Preston Tucker. Toyota can't be stopped by the SEC like Preston Tucker. Toyota can now afford to buy our Congress just like GM could but even then Japanese courts aren't going to help GM. What's good for GM ain't good for Japan Inc.

    Preston Tucker would have hurt GM, but a regulation agency, the SEC, helped to crush him.

    Today's Preston Tuckers are beset upon at all sides by a phalanx of regulatory agencies. A phalanx which protects the established big corporations from the consequences of their stupidity.

    At least until the Asians came along....

    You cheer them on. You like it. You envy people who make it. You envy their drive, you envy their enthusiasm, you instinctively hate their dreams because they are beyond your control. You hate small and medium sized business because they won't coddle union members, won't admit your superiority, won't knuckle under.

    There is this thing called "unintended consequences". People on your side of the fence have made a fetish out of ignoring it.

    Go ahead, keep it up. See what it gets you.

    Pendulum is swung hard over to your right
    at the moment gene. You can ask but it can't
    go any further unless you pass laws requiring
    citizens to allow free access for corporations
    to homeowners' lands, so they can dump even
    more waste for even less money.
    I don't see one irrational environmental law being repealed, Jim.

    I don't even see the EPA being asked by Congress to think twice about changing ground ozone standards from their bizarre fantasy levels to something that American industry can afford.

    As I see it, Jim, you have no cause whatsoever to complain, except of course that American industry is being shut down and we're losing manufacturing jobs.

    To which you cry, "Corporate Greed!". There is no other answer for you. CEOs may like "outsourcing" but I doubt that they love going out of business. Nobody likes to fail, Jim.


    Voltaire used to say that it was a sign of intelligence to learn from the mistakes of others. We saw what central planning and government control did for the USSR and the rest of the former Soviet bloc.

    They could not compete with us and from time to time they couldn't even feed themselves. They had committees of people who governed the price of pantyhose... Pantyhose!! Even Krushchev said that if a person couldn't get a glass of milk they might think that communism was a bad thing.

    They had ICBMs and a space program but you couldn't always get fresh food in the stores. You waited in lines like livestock to shop for food!

    Unless you had "connections" or money. In which case you lived pretty well. So much for "equality", huh?


    Gene

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    The question gene isn't why was ken lay and jeffy skilling prosecuted. The question is why did
    it take so LONG for kenny boy to get caught?
    ....because Enron had "connections" with both the Republicans and Democrats. They donated brib... campaign contributions. Clinton got some and so did Bush.

    Your "answer" to this "problem" of people bribing a powerful government to do their bidding is to... make the government more powerful!!

    Yeah, that's the ticket.... empower the government to solicit still more bribes!!

    If Washington DC wasn't chock full of crooked people who had so many services to sell and didn't have a cheer leading section all over the US who encouraged and protected them (I'm speaking of you and others like you) than they wouldn't hold their hands out.

    You're part of the problem, Jim, masquerading as a "solution". People like me want to take some of our power back, to us, to the people. So we can make decisions and run our own lives.

    Yeah, like the old "Declaration of Independence" said, "from the people", not "by leave of the State". This ain't Europe, my man.

    What did we get from Enron, you ask? What deep lessons were imparted by this tragedy? Did we simply punish the actors involved? Sooner or later, yes.

    Did we change the laws so that crooked executives would have less reason to bribe Congress people? Well, no, exactly the opposite really.

    What did we get? Sarbanes Oxley!!!

    Everyone who gives orders is another Ken Lay!! Every boss is a criminal. I know, Jim, I have to work around this crap every damn day!! Yes, little old me.

    In a perfect world, Jim, parts are perfect. This ain't a perfect world. We have duds. I get to detect 'em and rip 'em out. Ask for a replacement.

    There the fun begins....

    My boss cannot request and remove a part from the parts cage. He has do one or the other. We need TWO BOSSES to get parts. Brilliant!! Ingenious!

    That'll really help me get that piece out to market faster. No siree bob, customer satisfaction... no sir, we could have an embryo Ken Lay at every desk in America. We must be vigilant against all mistakes!!

    Ingenious.... hobble American industry still more in a global marketplace.

    You ought to be ashamed of yourself, defending this convoluted sophistry... but you're proud!

    So much for shame, huh?

    Gene

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    The question gene isn't why was ken lay and jeffy skilling prosecuted. The question is why did
    it take so LONG for kenny boy to get caught?

    Gene they had the president rooting for them.
    No, Jim, they had "Presidents" rooting for them. Clinton too.

    You know, Jim, you went off about Enron because it angers you.

    I consider your politics, and the politicians who represent it, to be dream killers and oppressors.

    I know that most "liberals" mean well. Well, they say that they mean well.

    You don't understand that some of us are "onto" this whole thing.

    We understand the consequences of your high ideals and good intentions.

    It's not just me waiting twenty minutes for my boss to drop what's he's doing and find a fellow boss to get the parts. Though repeat this dozens of time per day and we're losing time. My job, my annual bonus, my raises, all are affected by this Sarbanes Oxley non-sense.

    It's not just about going to a gun store and seeing the bizarre contortions that people go through to buy a gun or the odd compromises in design that happen because of regulations. It's not just about being treated like a criminal because I like to shoot. I shouldn't have to prove that I'm not a criminal, the criminals need to change their behaviors, not me.

    It's not about getting my car through emissions inspection while breathing fantastically clean air. It's not about being forbidden to change the timing and other settings to improve fuel economy because they're "tampering". It's about my car becoming an extension of the State and the implicit distrust of me as a car owner. It's about a "zero tolerance" for breaking the law and a zero respect for me to tweak my car so I can afford to live better.

    It's just not about trying to market consumer electronics of my own design, only to be told that my liability coverage would be terribly high, many times what I could afford. Or hearing the same advice from an attorney. Yeah, blame "Big Insurance", but then again, how do they get away with such things in a "free market" than because people need to protect themselves from greedy trial lawyers?

    It's a lot more..... it's remembering the horror show of university, of being made to feel "guilty" because I was a white male. It's dealing with angry minorities who feel entitled and militant about "injustices" that they've never seen but are happy to inflict upon others.

    To such injustice I say "phooey". I don't support police harassment, I never owned slaves. Slavery to me is repugnant and disgusting. I have no guilt or shame, only fear. And Anger.

    You guys don't understand the resentment you're engendering out here. You can't fathom the anger you're creating.

    Violence? No. Impotence. You can't lead us if we don't trust you. You can't remain in the lead if you're distrusted and hated.

    You can't keep pointing guns at us either. Sooner or later we'll get brave and we won't obey. What's worse, we won't support you. We'll even obstruct you. Below the radar. We have all day to think about how to get in the road. Ways you can't imagine because you don't work where we work.

    It'll be like Russia - you'll issue orders and things won't happen. You'll squeeze tighter and things won't happen. Sooner or later things will start to really go to hell in a handcart.

    We'll suffer. We already are starting to suffer. How can it get better if "liberals" are now embracing anti-human creeds like environmentalism?

    You gotta starting thinking about us as people and not dirty livestock. We're not stupid because we refuse to endorse "progress", Jim. We're not animals because we say bad words or refuse to respect your high ideals. Respect is like money, except that there is no analogue to welfare for respect.

    When you trot out these fixes, like mandating small cars, or special laws, you show us gross disrespect. You insult us. You demean us.

    You are not our friend, Jim. I am a working man, but I do not consider your kind to be my friend. You are as dangerous to my happiness as any indifferent or arrogant CEO. Except that changing jobs is easier than changing citizenship.

    Gene

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    Ah, gene, you need to get a life man. It's
    the holidays. Take a break. Relax.

    Jim

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    Jim, GeneH will never have a life because he is not capable of handling conflict (which comes with all interaction with others of the species) without his aggression coming to full bloom.

    Case in point:

    GeneH
    What does this have to do with "Free Trade", Mr. Autarky?
    Autarky:

    An autarky is an economy that is self-sufficient and does not take part in international trade, or severely limits trade with the outside world.


    I don't have the time to review my own posts to point out to GeneH how many times I have stated that America has to trade, that America lacks certain raw materials, that historically, America was never an autarky and I have always proposed a return to our tariffs that would keep imports to about 4% of GNP and a balance of trade, not a trade deficit.

    When a person continues to repeat aggression in situations that don't warrant it, it is most likely due to a learned response - most likely from childhood.

    Like an alcoholic who can't control his drinking, GeneH can't control his aggression against people who disagree with him.

    That is a fatal behavior in personal relationships because conflict is unavoidable and always resorting to aggression to resolve conflict is very destructive to a personal relationship.

    I do feel sorry for GeneH, he is his own worst enemy.

    Steve

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    Jim, GeneH will never have a life because he is not capable of handling conflict (which comes with all interaction with others of the species) without his aggression coming to full bloom.
    I do feel sorry for GeneH, he is his own worst enemy.
    Steve, there is little the irritates me more than someone who cruises for a bruising and then cries like a baby when they reach their destination.

    You are a "one trick pony". Every problem that involves American industry is due to "unfair trade". In part you are right - we even pay taxes that are redistributed to American industry so it can offshore with far greater ease. We pay for Ex/Im loans, grants and other mechanisms to build up foreign industry at our own expense. These favors should cease immediately.

    Then you demand tarrifs. You demand huge tarrifs. There is no other solution to you. We must build high walls, behind which we'll rot.

    I just want a little sanity inside of the beltway. Sure, it'd be nice if ALL regulations go away, but I'm reasonable enough not to demand utopia over night.

    I'd be happy if Congress, EPA and the rest had to justify what they did, and had the OMB calculate the costs of their dreams and schemes. That isn't being done now, and the insanity is impoverishing the rest of us.

    We don't need antiseptically clean air. We can handle some pollution. We each generate "green house gases".

    There is a price of civilization, of progress. Mistakes will be made. Not making mistakes means that you're not doing anything. That goes for civilizations as well as individuals. If we're going to eliminate risk and pain we might as well all learn Hindi or Mandarin for the convenience of our new overlords.

    I don't have the time to review my own posts to point out to GeneH how many times I have stated that America has to trade, that America lacks certain raw materials, that historically, America was never an autarky and I have always proposed a return to our tariffs that would keep imports to about 4% of GNP and a balance of trade, not a trade deficit.
    The end result of your proposal, Steve, is autarky. You're demanding that 96 percent of all voluntary exchanges must occur between Americans. I just wonder who is going to buy $2,000 VCRs and $25,000 Ford Escorts or Chevy Cobalts?

    If we're trading for overseas resources we're competing with "cheap foreign labor". You can't escape that fact, not unless we're going to bully these people at gunpoint and bomb point.

    Now you're also talking quotas. Why not ten percent of GNP? Why not twenty percent of GNP?

    Why four percent of GNP in terms of imports? Nice round figure that appeals to you, huh?

    I'm honestly curious how you arrived at such a figure, Steve. I am instinctively suspicious of "round figures", I worked in accounting for a time and know how rare it is to see round figures, except when someone "guesstimated".

    We probably spend more four percent per annum now on raw materials.

    You propose that we're going to compete with China and India IN A GLOBAL MARKETPLACE for raw materials while importing almost nothing finished ourselves? That American consumers will be able to afford $2,000 VCRs and $25,000 basic cars?

    Oh, some of us will work for third world wages while others reap the rewards? That's not very egalitarian, Steve.

    Oh.... I get it. Businesses will make less profit. They'll be "more generous". Tell me, Steve, will working people assume more of the risk of business too? That's the flip side of profit you know. No? I didn't think so.

    What do we do if Indonesia, Saudi Arabia or some other country choses to trade with China or India instead of us? Do we send in our Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force? Bomb them until they see the light? That's what we're doing now in Iraq. How's it working? Pretty crappy.


    Gross National Product is such an arbitrary figure... it's based upon an ESTIMATE of total economic performance. It includes estimates of voluntary exchanges like wives and husbands doing labor within families. Kids doing chores. By such a basis China or India would be the largest economies on Earth - lots of exchanges going on "under the radar" between populations that are three times ours.

    However since we're Americans and America is special we calculate ours one way, they do another.

    The irony is that I'm supporting Ron Paul, who has said he's going to clamp down on Free Trade. I agree, because our "free trade" is managed trade, a scheme that benefits monied interests at the expense of the rest of us. We even pay taxes so that we can export good paying jobs over seas.

    I am not sure that Americans could compete in a global market in every case against cheap labor. I'm certain we're not doing it now. We don't have to subsidize offshoring and outsourcing - that's an infamy to me.

    Big difference between that and mandating that Americans buy American at gunpoint.

    I don't pity you. You sometimes annoy the hell out of me with your tarrifs and quotas. Most of all your sense of entitlement exasperates me. I have to cope with such non-sense at work from people who expect more than a paycheck, decent working conditions and many benefits.

    It'd be nice if people were more willing to put in a little effort than to demand more.

    Gene

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    Ah, gene, you need to get a life man. It's
    the holidays. Take a break. Relax.
    It's called "Passion", born of having my dreams dashed, born of weathering five layoffs, born of watching this nation turn into a Third World Cesspool due to the best of intentions.

    We will be free again, Jim.

    Gene

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    You have just defined "Bitterness"
    Not Passion.

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    "you went off about Enron because it angers you."

    No. I discussed it because you brought it up. Go
    back and check. You proved my point. Thanks again.
    Kenny Boy was tight with GWB. That's his pet
    name for lay.

    Gene I've bought rifles several times recently.
    There were no machinations, no undo trouble. What
    the *heck* are you talking about? And this was
    in NY state to boot.

    Jim

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    You have just defined "Bitterness"
    Not Passion.
    Not quite, Ries. If I were bitter I'd feel entitled. I don't feel entitled. Nobody owed me a job. There is no sacred law that says America must be the "shining city on the hill". Every dog has their day, everyone has their time in the sun.

    We weren't founded by people who played it safe, who eliminated risk and who shied away from opportunity. Even if a lot of our ancestors were running from something they chose to come here and accepted opportunity. They tolerated attitudes and privledge and made their way here.

    I could not imagine someone like Hillary Clinton founding this country. I couldn't imagine a Senator in the 1700s complaining about the price of breakfast cereal. We were more "caveat emptor" and a lot less "I'm a victim".

    So, no, I'm not embittered. I am angry. I feel that the system is being polluted by alien ideas that are sapping our will and corrupting our motivation. These ideas need to be exposed as lies and crushed without pity. Especially the idea that the "system" owes people things, that there is a free lunch and that one person can warp everything for their own benefit.

    Gene

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    "price of breakfast cereal."

    No, that was breakfast tea.

    [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Jim

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    "price of breakfast cereal."

    No, that was breakfast tea.

    [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

    Jim
    Maybe that too, Jim.

    "The two, Sam Gejdenson of Connecticut and Charles E. Schumer of New York, both Democrats, said at a news conference today that the cost of cold cereal had increased by 90 percent since 1983, twice the rate for other foods, and that about 55 percent of the price of a box of cereal was for marketing and profits, twice the average of other foods.

    Citing a report compiled by their offices that notes more than a $1.50 difference between name-brand cereals and generic brands, they said the four companies had kept generic brands from competing successfully."

    source

    Apparently Schumer wasn't yet Senator when he pulled this crap. My mistake, and New York State's too.

    Amusing article on the topic from Reason Magazine. Source

    Gene

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    "These ideas need to be exposed as lies and crushed without pity"

    Sounds just like Hitler.

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    "Especially the idea that the "system" owes people things,..."

    You are talking about entitlements gene. Correct
    me if I'm mis-stating your thoughts but that is
    what it sounds like to me.

    Entitlements are where the government takes money
    from somebody with money, and gives it to somebody
    else. Those are a sticky wicket because folks
    who are getting free money hate to miss out on it.

    Entitlements come in all flavors. You have
    social security, medicare, disability insurance.
    Then you have the example of mortgage interest
    being deductible for the homeowner in the US.
    Another give-away.

    Gene can you at least agree that corporations in
    the US right now are major beneficiaries of
    entitlement programs? For example the idea
    that oil companies do not have to pay to pump
    oil out from under public lands. That's an
    example of corporate welfare. Consider also the
    bail-outs that have been handed to airlines,
    basically free money.

    You object to your tax money going to something
    you find distasteful. OK. I feel the same way
    about two point four trillion dollars of tax
    money going to the iraq war. Just as distasteful
    and I would suggest that you could abolish a
    *lot* of AFDC programs and still not put a dent
    in the iraq war funding, that you could see with
    a very, very good microscope.

    Jim's rule, slay the big budge dragon first. You
    can dither around squishing the ants, but in the
    meantime the big'un will be eating you alive.

    It's important to stay focussed when discussing
    budgetary items. Start killing the ones where the
    units are in trillions of dollars. Kill a few
    of those and you might see some improvement.

    Stamping out a couple of HeadStart programs or
    foodstamps may give the right wing contingent a
    big smile. But that does not get the job done.

    Jim

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    Here is the crux of the matter regarding the environmental issues, for it is happening in my community right now. To frame the reference, we once in the 1990's through about 2001 had the following: a foundry that employed 100 to 150 people. A company that made "flock" that employed about 200 plus people. A Proctor and Gamble Company that employed 200 to 300 people. A paper mill that closed in 1996 that employed 50 people, and in the early 1990's until about 1996 a fabrics mill, and a shoe copmpany that made the soles for Lacrosse Boots - 50 people. Also a 70 to 80 employee shop closing by April.

    All closed BUT replaced by smaller machine shops of 5 to 25 people, a home manufacturing company where one companmy used to be (70 employees), another home manufacturing company (250 people), a cabinet manufacturer (100 to 120 people), A paper recycling company - 50 people, A third home building special design company - expanding, probably 50 to 60 people, and a major steel girder design company for bridges and large buildings - 150 people, looking to be about 250 people, a plasma torch parts maunfacturer and distributor and a specialty company that makes very specialized wood products using CNC machines. Add to this a Info Tech and Computer manufacturer who will need 100 more people in three years. Quite a bit of "homegrown" and start up companies or newer companies who want to remain US bound who expand to our community.

    Now people are starting to balk. Jobs lost have been quietly replaced after a two year span when all these places mentioned as closed were shut down. Now the issue suddenly has become this - Many people are saying "We need Industry", but when it comes, the outcry is "pollution", "danger to the environment", and "loss of farmland". Almost all of this has happened in empty facilities, but these are filled now - once again. I can understand this, for we do have a major pollutor that we do constant battle with in our city, but now all industry is labeled as such?

    I guess the balance is this. People want industry in the US, and much of what we can get back will be small companies growing - home brewed I call it, or start-up and growing "new established companies" who see potential in the US - maybe we should welcome this? However, people also want clean air, water plenty and clean, and farmland not plowed, and smaller industrial growth areas. There is also the dilema of a large need for employees, which is hard in a community of aged people (deservedly so, they made it, I will never blame them for that and hope to be aged someday) and fewer 25's to 45's to work.

    It is plain fact that as much as anyone on this page, I would like to see steel mills back in the US, Major oil refining operations back in service and expanded, GE growing major plants in country again, and foundries pouring domestic castings, and our people employed in gainful manufacturing pursuits that could sustain our country in a war or even in peacetime with consumer demand - the simple question is this....in who's backyard or on whos adjoining property lines (your backyard fence)would these be allowed to be built at this point in our countries development? THIS IS THE BATTLE AND DILEMA! Your backyard or your friends?

    Who will fill the jobs with other communities also facing the need for employees in health care, manufacturing, high end retail, Info tech and a growing hospitality field?

    This is the balance, and this is the problem we all face. I do not pretend to have the answer, but after a few years in the public eye, these are the things and battles all cities face as they try to expand industry while trying to balance the opposing views of people who look for a quality of life in areas where industry once thrived and are now used to life without things like foundries, factories, paper mills and such. Often times building homes and large area land tracts out of the lands where industry once bounded or resided.

    Also, where do we find the workers for manufacturing when the "menu of jobs" is now about ten times broader than it was just 25 years ago?

  18. #38
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    I am not exactly sure where the balance point is but if we havn't passed it yet we will soon. At some point the "big wheels" will figure out that too much manufacturing has gone away, and that they should do something, then they will figure out that more jobs will be affected by the slowing the importation of cheap imports than would be gained by rejouvinating manufacturing. I have a great deal of faith that they wil do something at that point that will screw up both.

  19. #39
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    GeneH
    You are a "one trick pony".
    The agony of repeat from the boy who should be looking in the mirror.

    GeneH
    Steve, there is little the irritates me more than someone who cruises for a bruising and then cries like a baby when they reach their destination.
    At least twice in previous threads I pointed out to you that you were the first one to start the insults, a point that you could not deny as I pointed out the failure of your convenient memory. Time and again I asked you to back off and stick to the subject, only to have you explore the depths of character assassination. Other members told you the exact same thing and you ignored them like you ignored me. I then asked the moderator to give you a vacation as your two year old mentality insisted upon personal attacks and not sticking to the subjects. Until the moderator decides that personal attacks are off limits, your non-machinist mouth will get you insults right back at you. You have done this to others also and reap the harvest you sew. Until you stop being a jerk, you will be treated as one. Grow up and stick to the subject, but that would be asking for a miracle. The exact same reason why you have no life. Nobody wants to be around a jerk.

    GeneH
    Then you demand tarrifs. You demand huge tarrifs. There is no other solution to you. We must build high walls, behind which we'll rot.
    An idiot is incapable of learning.

    U.S. Steel Rail History

    Year……….Price (per ton)……….Average U.S. Wage (annual)……….Price/Wage%
    1870……….$106.79……………..N/A
    1880……….$67.52……………….N/A
    1890……….$31.78……………….N/A
    1900……….$32.00……………….$375………………………………..8.5%
    1910……….$28.00……………….$517………………………………..5.4%
    1920……….$53.83……………….$1,236………………………………4.4%
    1930……….$43.00……………….$1,368………………………………3.1%
    1940……….$40.00……………….$1,299………………………………3.1%
    1950……….$68.34……………….$2,992………………………………2.2%
    1960……….$116.50……………..$4,743……………………………….2.4%
    1970……….$136.00……………..$7,564……………………………….1.8%

    Source: Historical Abstract of the United States

    Your stupid, lazy butt won't walk down to a public library and discover what a Historical Statistical Abstract of the United States is.

    You wouldn't know one if it dropped on your head, not that it would knock any sense into it.

    You spew out your brainless rhetoric, I post historic facts.

    You have reading comprehension problems?

    What part of my chart don't you understand?

    What part of your brain stops working and assumes there is no domestic competition to prevent "rot"?

    As for "huge tariffs", if you knew your butt from a hole in the ground (which you don't) about what you're talking about, you would discover that I am asking for tariff levels that would be less than what we slapped on imports in the past. But you choose to drown in your ignorance because you are a lazy, one trick pony who holds on to your religion when it gets proven wrong by reality because your religion is more important than the truth to you.

    GeneH
    The end result of your proposal, Steve, is autarky. You're demanding that 96 percent of all voluntary exchanges must occur between Americans.
    Yet another stupid error on your part. Even the free trade economists have never referred to America as an "utarky".

    GeneH
    I'm honestly curious how you arrived at such a figure, Steve.
    Oh, I bet you are curious. You are curious because you're too stinking lazy to study our trade history and too busy spewing out brainless dogma which doesn't take a fraction of the effort to come up with.

    Once again I have to do your homework for you because you don't know what a public library is.

    Steve

  20. #40
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    quote
    The world is changing...get used to it.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Gary is right, we had to, now it's your turn.


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