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  1. #41
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    Limy Sami
    Gary is right, we had to, now it's your turn.
    You sure did change:

    Comparative advantage was the fantasy of David Ricardo which he introduced in his book, "On the Principles of Political Economy and Taxation" published in 1817.

    Ricardo died in 1823 and so was never able to witness his "comparative advantage" and what wonderful fruits it brought to his own country, England.


    "We give to our rivals a free market of 43,000,000 persons in the United Kingdom to add to their own free market. Thus the United States possess an open market of 82,000,000 persons in the United States, plus an open market of 43,000,000 persons in Great Britain, making, altogether, 125,000,000. Similarly, Germany possesses an open market of 43,000,000 in Great Britain. As against this, we posses only such residule of our open market of 43,000,000 as the unrestricted competition of foreign nations leaves unimpaired…We call ourselves Free Traders, but we have never secured Free Trade for ourselves; we have merely succeeded in enlarging the area within which our Protectionist competitors enjoy Free Trade."

    John Stuart Mill
    "The Op-Ed History of America"
    p. 23

    Even the rabid Free-Trader, John Maynard Keynes, had to back track on his free trade religion after he witnessed the whole sale gutting of Britains’ economy by free trade:

    "Defense of free trade theory is, I submit, the result of pure intellectual error, due to a complete misunderstanding of the theory of equilibrium in international trade - an error which it is worthwhile to extirpate if one can, because it is shared, I fancy, by a multitude of less eminent free traders. Does he (William Beveridge-London School of Economics) believe that it makes no difference to the amount of employment in this country if I decide to buy a British car instead of an American car?"

    The Collected Writings of John Maynard Keynes
    vol. 20 p. 508

    Pennsylvania steel manufacturer Joseph Wharton argued that imported steel rails from England had cost $165 in gold per ton in 1864; five years later, behind a protective tariff, a U.S. steel industry was producing all of America’s needs for $80 per ton.
    By 1880, the United States behind a protective tariff, was second only to Great Britain in its share of world manufacturing output, with the U.S. producing 14.7 % compared to Britain’s 22.9%. By 1913, the United States was producing 32% of the world’s output compared to Germany at 14.8% and a sinking, free trade Britain at 13.6%. "We lead all nations in agriculture; we lead all nations in mining; we lead all nations in manufacturing," President McKinley declared. "These are the trophies we bring after twenty-nine years of a protective tariff".

    From 1869 to 1900, the gross national product quadrupled.
    The United States ran budget surpluses every year from 1866 to 1893.
    The national debt was reduced by two-thirds; by 1900 it was less than 7% of the GNP.
    Customs duties provided 58% of all federal revenue from 1869 to 1900.
    There was no income tax - save Lincoln’s wartime tax and Cleveland’s brief 2% flat tax on the rich, which was declared unconstitutional.
    Between 1870 and 1900, commodity prices fell 58%.
    Real wages, despite a doubling of the U.S. population, rose 53 percent.
    Annual growth of the U.S. economy averaged more than 4% a year from 1870 to 1913.
    From 1870 to 1913, U.S. industrial production rose 4.7% a year, compared with 2.1% a year in free trade Britain.
    American exports grew by almost 5% a year from 1870 to 1913, while free trade Britain’s grew less than 3%.
    Protectionist America’s share of world exports rose from 7.9% in 1870 to 12.9% in 1913 - while free trade Britain’s fell from 18.9% to 13.9%.
    Between 1869 and 1910, merchandise imports fell from 8% of the GNP to 4%.
    The United States began the era with half of Britain’s production and ended it with more than double Britain’s.

    By 1885, the United States had surpassed Great Britain, then considered the world’s major industrial power, in manufacturing output. By the turn of the century, it was consuming more energy than Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Russia, Japan, and Italy combined. Between the 1865 and 1900, American coal production rose by 800%, steel rails by 523%, railway track mileage by 567%, and wheat production by 256%.

    And worst of all, after Britain repealed her corn laws, she became so dependent on American grain for food that when World War I came she nearly starved from German U-boat blockade. Between 1846 and 1910 British imports of wheat grew 1,000 percent. On the eve of WW I, once self-sufficient Britain could only grow enough wheat to feed a fourth of her population.

    Rear Admiral William S. Sims, in some ways a Rickover type, loquacious and nonconforming, but withal a very handsome sailor, was already on his way to London for a reconnaissance; he reported to the Admiralty three days after the United States entered the war. Admiral Jellicoe, now the First Sea Lord, showed him the figures on the U-boat sinkings. The Allies had started the war with twenty-one million tons of shipping, or about six million tons more than was essential to feed Britain and keep the deployed armies supplied. The shipbuilding program had not quite stayed apace with the loss rate. Now, according to Jellicoe's figures, the U-boats had wiped out one third of the six-million margin in two months. The March (1917) losses had been 500,000 tons; April losses would pass 800,000. Said Sims: "Looks as if the Germans are winning the war."
    "They will unless we stop those losses," replied Jellicoe.

    The American Heritage History of World War I
    1964
    p. 206


    Steve

  2. #42
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    Steve,
    My point wasn't simply about production / pricing / jobs / company law, BUT mind set.

    If you don't want to lose jobs and business's outside Americas shores, don't buy the imports:- No market for foreign goods = no imports = USA businesses and jobs.

    Dragging the histories of world wars in to it is a cheap jibe and in the USA's case, convieniently glossing over the fact that Britain had to pay for the materials of said wars,...... to the point the final payment was only made a couple of years ago...... bit like a 40 year plus mortgage on a war,....... wonder how long the allies will be paying for the Iraq adventure?

  3. #43
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    Limy Sami
    If you don't want to lose jobs and business's outside Americas shores, don't buy the imports:- No market for foreign goods = no imports = USA businesses and jobs.
    And throughout our history, the best way to control the market for imported goods was to tariff those goods. In theory, mindset is all you need.

    Theory, meet reality. Reality has this nasty habit of winning every time.

    If 80% of the U.S. toy market is controlled by imports, then when tariffs are set to zero, 80% of the imported U.S. toy market pays no taxes.

    Instead, the 20% domestic manufacturer gets hit with 100% of the taxes. Not theory, reality.

    FOR FISCAL YEAR 2004

    GDP = $11,552.8 BILLION
    FEDERAL REVENUES = $1,880.1 BILLION
    STATE REVENUES & LOCAL REVENUES = $1,585.3 BILLION
    IMPORTS = $2,118.1 BILLION
    TARIFFS $21.083 BILLION

    TOTAL GOVERNMENT REVENUES = $3,465.4 BILLION

    IMPORTS AS PERCENT OF GDP = 18.3%

    TARIFFS AS PERCENT OF IMPORTS = 1.0%

    TARIFFS AS PERCENT OF ALL TAXES = 0.6%

    ALL TAXES AS PERCENT OF GDP = 30.0%

    PER CAPITA TAX BURDEN = $11,551

    AS A PER CAPITA GDP THAT WOULD RANK 47th OUT OF 182 NATIONS

    OR GREATER THAN 74.2% OF ALL NATIONS


    Limey, I can't compete against 74.2% of the nations who have average incomes less than my average tax burden. Not theory, reality.

    Do you have any idea how high my property taxes are on our two bedroom house?

    $1,590 in 2006.

    Do you know that would rank 117th out of 182 countries for GDP?

    People from 65 countries, from Egypt to Honduras, from India to Bolivia, earn less money than what I have to pay out in property taxes.

    Not theory, reality.

    The average American knows we can't compete against poverty wages but is too stupid to check where the goods he/she buys comes from. The average American can't balance their check book either.

    The average American only cares about price. And if we raise the taxes on imports, the American product will become the cheaper choice at the store.

    But this will probably never happen. We are destined to financial collapse. Americans are now used to $15 tennis shoes and would cry if that price went up to the cost of an American tennis shoe like New Balance at $60 a pair. And our prostitute media would be leading the cry. As goes the media, so goes the country.

    I give our country less than a 1% chance of avoiding the ultimate closure of our government. The government will not be able to pay the interest on the national debt when the nations of the world run from the dollar and the U.S. government will not be able to borrow enough money to keep running.

    All the millions of people who lost their factory jobs and are living on food stamps and national health care will go hungry and without medicine.

    Steve

  4. #44
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    The only way to compete with third world is to become third world. Which I think is the plan all along.

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    I couldn't agree more :mad: .

    Our economy was strong until somebody decided that our workers could compete against people earning sustenance wages, or less.

    I'm not amused by people with the opinion that all we need to do is adapt to these circumstances. They never have honest, real, concrete explanations of what we're to adapt to.

    While our factories have closed by the tens of thousands since our government allowed the WTO to wreak havok, our country has been flooded by millions of illegals, most of whom are uneducated, and will undoubtedly want to enjoy full access to our social programs, to a greater extent than they currently enjoy.

    When I was a young lad, I never imagined our own government would flush us down the crapper :mad: :mad: :mad: .

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    When I was a young lad, I never imagined our own government would flush us down the crapper
    --------------------------------------------------

    You have my sympathy, and no I'm not taking the juice.
    Try being a Brit, our government has been doing it for the last 52 years to my knowledge.

  7. #47
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    art deco
    The only way to compete with third world is to become third world. Which I think is the plan all along.
    I agree.

    "In short, the "house of world order" will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down. It will look like a great "booming, buzzing confusion," to use William James’ famous description of reality, but an end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old-fashioned frontal assault."

    Richard N. Gardner

    Columbia University law professor and veteran State Department official (most recently, the Clinton administration’s ambassador to Spain). The article was entitled "The Hard Road to World Order," and appeared in the April 1974 issue of Foreign Affairs, a journal which Time magazine calls "the most influential periodical in print." The influence of Foreign Affairs derives, of course, from the fact that it is the official house organ of the organized one-worlders at the Council on Foreign Relations, or CFR.

    Fun fact: Every U.S. Secretary of State since 1944 has been a CFR member.


    "We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it in blood as well as in words and money"

    Arthur Schlesinger
    Foreign Affairs, July/August 1995, p.8

    Foreign Affairs is the magazine of the Counsel on Foreign Relations.


    "Some [ideological extremists] believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

    David Rockefeller
    "Memoirs", 2002


    Can you say treason?

    But in the New World Order, there won't be treason because there won't be nations.


    Steve

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    While our factories have closed by the tens of thousands since our government allowed the WTO to wreak havok
    The WTO started in 1995. How do we explain plant closings before that time, especially in the late 1970s and early 1980s? GATT, maybe? Maybe a Class Struggle regime that began in Washington DC in the early 1970s and continues until this day?

    I say, and will continue to say, that it's irrational regulations and crazy monetary policy. Especially Activist driven regulation.

    our country has been flooded by millions of illegals, most of whom are uneducated, and will undoubtedly want to enjoy full access to our social programs, to a greater extent than they currently enjoy.
    Blame corrupt politicians who get money from business interests AND from corrupt Mexican politicians.

    "Free Trade" doesn't seem to have a lot to do with it.

    Gene

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    Some [ideological extremists] believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."
    *shrug*

    You ought to be more worried about Maurice Strong than David Rockefeller, but since he's real big on "saving the planet" you probably like him, Steve.

    Among other things, Mr. Strong decries the use of "convenience foods" in Western society. Imagine what he thinks of keeping sick children in industrialized societies alive when millions of poor kids go to bed around the world hungry?

    Gene

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    The bio of Maurice Strong reads more like a Corporate Executive intent on making profit from heavy industry, land development and taking farmers water for resale to cities which was soundly stopped in Colorado.

    Hardly a tree hugger.

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    >The WTO started in 1995. How do we explain plant >closings before that time, especially in the late >1970s and early 1980s? GATT, maybe? Maybe a Class >Struggle regime that began in Washington DC in the >early 1970s and continues until this day?

    One of the reasons was the "Trade Act of 1974". Study what lead to that law. To "powers" said that the US standard of living was to high compared to the rest of the world. Ours had to come down & theirs up. That was in the newpaper & news magazines at the time.

    >I say, and will continue to say, that it's >irrational regulations and crazy monetary policy. >Especially Activist driven regulation.

    This is a large part of it also.

    Bad thing is, IMO, it will only get worse. Now it is a somewhat friendly facsism. After the next election, it may be a less friendly facsism.

    Martin

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    GeneH
    You ought to be more worried about Maurice Strong than David Rockefeller, but since he's real big on "saving the planet" you probably like him, Steve.
    GeneH, let me give just one specific example of your constant slander of my character and your very convenient memory:

    From my thread:

    The Japanese Myth

    From my post:

    dated 11-11-2006:

    -------------------------------------------------

    Actually, Gene, I do agree with you on this issue. You probably have examples of regulatory insanity that surpass mine. This is one of my favorites from 2001:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b6823b633ba.htm

    "Firefighters struggling to contain a blaze in central Washington State that ultimately killed four of their own were hampered in their efforts by a federal policy to protect endangered fish, Fox News has learned.

    Firefighters were unable to douse the deadly fire in Okanogan National Forest in Winthrop, Wash., in July because of delays in granting permission for fire-fighting helicopters to use water from nearby streams and rivers protected by the Endangered Species Act, according to sources close to the fire.

    Firefighters Tom L. Craven, 30, Karen L. Fitzpatrick, 18, Devin A Weaver, 21, and Jessica L. Johnson, 19, burned to death while cowering under protective tents near the Chewuch River, home to protected species salmon and trout. Seventeen other firefighters survived the ordeal."

    And I'm with you on the global warming issue. How prominent scientists, who know darn well the earth has had thousands of years of dramatic climate change in its past (ice ages) can claim they know for a fact what is causing this last round of warm-up. As pointed out, in the 1970's these same people were claiming that we were on the brink of another ice age. I'm waiting for them to make up their minds.

    But for manufacturing to be competitive, it will take much more than EPA regulations to overcome the wage difference. Mexico, with no EPA worth mentioning, is losing its factories to China and Indonesia because of one simple factor, wages. It is the race to the bottom of the wage pool."

    -------------------------------------------------

    Any more stupid, brainless comments from you?

    This is what ticks people off about you, and I'm not alone.


    Steve

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    Hell guys, we've got a real live bank that's gone bust.

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    " race to the bottom of the wage pool..."

    Game set match.

    I would suggest that any misguided attempts
    to blame this on (pick one) unions, work
    ethics, anti-pollution laws, minimum wages,
    etc. are simply incorrect.

    Jim

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    'Hell guys, we've got a real live bank that's gone bust'.

    I hope no more go bust.

    We have a yearly publication at the library that rates USA banks on their management practices related to risk. Debt, investments, loans, cash on hand, etc. You may have something similar.

    The ratings are sort of interesting and it becomes obvious image is designed to lure you into a secure looking place. One of the most plain looking and small banks down the road is highly rated. The ratings have sure pointed me to safer places (I hope). The book also shows who owns what bank and some of the ones trying to look local with 'bank of your town' names are owned by interests elsewhere.

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    ARticle in the paper yesterday about the state of florida, they just locked down
    their state investment fund. Seems there was a run on it.

    ANyone want to guess what their main investment was?

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    ARticle in the paper yesterday about the state of florida, they just locked down
    their state investment fund. Seems there was a run on it.

    Anyone want to guess what their main investment was?

    Jim
    Funny you mention that. I saw an hour long news segment about the real estate meltdown. They were featuring real estate developers, agents, and investors in the Miami Florida area.

    After interviewing a number of people in the real estate business, it was obvious what happened there. Unfortunately there are quite a few large downtown developments underway, but now they've got nobody to sell to......for the price they anticipated selling.

    They discussed how people would pay incredibly high prices for up-scale apartments and condos, then keep them for a relatively short period before selling them at a nice profit.

    Things just kept spiraling up out of control, and the developers knew things were WAY out of control, yet they continued to build.

    Did I just hear a bubble pop ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoBoy View Post
    'Hell guys, we've got a real live bank that's gone bust'.

    I hope no more go bust.

    We have a yearly publication at the library that rates USA banks on their management practices related to risk. Debt, investments, loans, cash on hand, etc. You may have something similar.

    The ratings are sort of interesting and it becomes obvious image is designed to lure you into a secure looking place. One of the most plain looking and small banks down the road is highly rated. The ratings have sure pointed me to safer places (I hope). The book also shows who owns what bank and some of the ones trying to look local with 'bank of your town' names are owned by interests elsewhere.
    Where can I see this?

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    Another state just had the same problem that florida has.

    Montana I think.

    Their state investment fund had a run on it, everyone was trying to take their
    money out. They locked that one down, too. Again they were heavy into
    repackaged sub-prime loans.

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by machinehead61 View Post
    GeneH GeneH, let me give just one specific example of your constant slander of my character and your very convenient memory:

    But for manufacturing to be competitive, it will take much more than EPA regulations to overcome the wage difference. Mexico, with no EPA worth mentioning, is losing its factories to China and Indonesia because of one simple factor, wages. It is the race to the bottom of the wage pool."

    -------------------------------------------------

    Any more stupid, brainless comments from you?

    This is what ticks people off about you, and I'm not alone.


    Steve
    Dear Steve,

    You've neglected to include not just EPA regs but also confiscatory taxes, double taxation, intrusive IRS paperwork, predatory lawsuits, "Court Room Socialism", Crony Capitalism, Class Struggle, Unions which have gone far beyond protecting working people into business organizations which shake down industries for entitlements, Green activists who have elevated an imaginary Earth goddess above the welfare of human beings....

    I could go on for pages. At the core of this "problem" is a schism between cause and effect and inability of many to understand the pressures faced by business, plus a grotesque sense of entitlement, conceit and hubris. Coupled with a total lack of shame and empathy for others.



    As usual you're playing your own trick pony - it's "wages". You neglect that people who work for slave wages cannot produce quality product. You neglect that people who are starving cannot focus clearly and cannot master the intricate skills needed to produce highly complex manufacturing processes.

    Instead you have a one trick problem with a one trick solution - tarrifs. You cite the same old statistics, neglecting that as tarrifs fell towards the end of the 1800s US industry boomed. I cite YOUR STATISTICS drawing DIFFERENT conclusions and you get personal and snippy, while accusing me of calling you names and showing you "disrespect".

    I could honestly care less if people love me or not here. I am concerned with the truth. I am always open to honest criticism. I've admitted the limitations of Capitalism and have embraced some forms of regulations.

    Alas, "black and white" thinking and simplistic solutions to complex problems will always be with us. So will persons with strong senses of entitlement. Too bad that such people vote, still more troublesome is that politicians listen to them.

    Gene


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