A short rejoinder to Gordon's nonsens about healthcare - Page 10
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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The first part of doing anything about it is to look at WHY American health costs are so high. If it is the insurers' fault than why are the "chargemaster" prices so staggeringly high?

    I mentioned in a post that an uninsured friend was billed nearly $1,500 for minor stitches (less than 1 inch) in a cut finger. That's an enormous amount of money for something that involved hours of sitting and waiting and minutes of treatment. Until and unless the root causes of such outrageous pricing are examined in detail switching to a "single payer" system would either result in massive tax increases or rationing of health care.



    Keep peddling those tired old lines. Progressives like yourself always try to limit choices and then insist that THEIR way is "change for the better" while dismissing anything that doesn't fit the narrative. I'm in my 60s and remember when most health care was self-pay and was not only affordable but convenient. Doctors made house calls and there were not only plenty of hospitals but also cheaper and even free clinics. Once middlemen got introduced between provider and patient cost began to rise and the trend has accelerated with each growth spurt of "the middlemen" which includes government.
    By DEFINATION conservatives are opposed to change.
    It's what it MEANS.
    Research shows they fear it and have trouble processing new ideas.
    It's natural to fear what you can't understand.

    Hell you can't even sort your libertarian bend with your conservative ideology.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The first part of doing anything about it is to look at WHY American health costs are so high. If it is the insurers' fault than why are the "chargemaster" prices so staggeringly high?

    I mentioned in a post that an uninsured friend was billed nearly $1,500 for minor stitches (less than 1 inch) in a cut finger. That's an enormous amount of money for something that involved hours of sitting and waiting and minutes of treatment. Until and unless the root causes of such outrageous pricing are examined in detail switching to a "single payer" system would either result in massive tax increases or rationing of health care.
    The reason why costs are so high in the USA is that it is a "free" market and all take as much as they can get.

    A "single payer" system might result in tax increases but you'd end up paying less than the vast majority of what you are paying now for insurance. In countries with tax financed health care rationing is as good as never an option. That's a death penalty.

    In fact companies that today "give" health care as part of the employment could use the money saved to give wage increases.

    Some of you have no problem with a financial increase to what is by far the most expensive military in the world and yet have an issue with getting health care to all.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    The reason why costs are so high in the USA is that it is a "free" market and all take as much as they can get.

    A "single payer" system might result in tax increases but you'd end up paying less than the vast majority of what you are paying now for insurance. In countries with tax financed health care rationing is as good as never an option. That's a death penalty.

    In fact companies that today "give" health care as part of the employment could use the money saved to give wage increases.

    Some of you have no problem with a financial increase to what is by far the most expensive military in the world and yet have an issue with getting health care to all.
    That is not quite correct. Many people covered by employer provided insurance pay very little and when they see a doctor or other provider the most they usually pay out of pocket is a $10 or $20 "co-pay". The major issue with the U.S. system is inequality and the majority of people covered by good plans likes it that way. When people talk about universal coverage what it would mean for those people (who are a very large portion of the voting population) is either paying much more in taxes for the same care or accepting a reduced level of care. Basically, what's in it for them?

    Most of the seniors on Medicare buy supplemental coverage and neither lack for care nor have problems paying for it, so they are also part of the group that resists being put in with Medicaid patients and the uninsured in some kind of single payer system.

    No doubt "the usual suspects" will start playing the emotional violin and say "how can they not care about others" but bryan_machine has stated the case exactly about trying to make people care about "others" who are not of their group. How willing would YOU be to merge the Danish system with poorer countries like Greece and Italy, especially if it meant higher taxes, reduced care, or both?

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    Once more with feeling:

    1. Gordon, "the people" is some 320 million individuals, and a substantial majority of them LIKE THE CURRENT SYSTEM. The *majority* IS getting what it wants.

    2. To the variety of people who (with some justification) say "but you don't cover all of your citizens!" - I repeat once more - We're the Americans, we're barbaric assholes, get over it.

  5. Likes Scottl, thermite liked this post
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Once more with feeling:

    1. Gordon, "the people" is some 320 million individuals, and a substantial majority of them LIKE THE CURRENT SYSTEM. The *majority* IS getting what it wants.

    2. To the variety of people who (with some justification) say "but you don't cover all of your citizens!" - I repeat once more - We're the Americans, we're barbaric assholes, get over it.
    To 1. I'd say that your " substantial majority" has no idea of what goes on elsewhere.

    To 2. There's nothing for me to get over. I have a system that works for me and as good as all others here. Pity you can't say the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    ...To the variety of people who (with some justification) say "but you don't cover all of your citizens!" - I repeat once more - We're the Americans, we're barbaric assholes, get over it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    ... I'd say that your " substantial majority" has no idea of what goes on elsewhere.
    Both statements are equally true.

  8. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Once more with feeling:

    1. Gordon, "the people" is some 320 million individuals, and a substantial majority of them LIKE THE CURRENT SYSTEM. The *majority* IS getting what it wants.

    2. To the variety of people who (with some justification) say "but you don't cover all of your citizens!" - I repeat once more - We're the Americans, we're barbaric assholes, get over it.
    Your statement lacks nuance...have some complexity.
    Health care is one of the nation's biggest problems: Polls - Aug. 1, 217


    You may be a barbaric asshole. Don't pretend you speak for the nation.

  9. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    To 1. I'd say that your " substantial majority" has no idea of what goes on elsewhere.
    True. They also do not LIVE "elsewhere". Give even the dumbest of those credit for understanding that what goes on as to healthcare someplace they don't live and don't qualify for coverage under isn't really of any use BOTHERING to have an idea of.

    They may be slow.. but they are ahead of YOU on that count.

    To 2. There's nothing for me to get over. I have a system that works for me and as good as all others here. Pity you can't say the same.
    But we can say the same. Our healthcare costs may be waaaay to Hell and gone higher than those of Denmark, but our TOTAL tax burden is much lower.

    Results are in the statistics. USA has about $10,000 USD a year - over 20% - higher average Purchasing Power than Denmark NET-NET of those "Free" benefits you after all, still pay for, one way or another.

    We have more as "discretionary" income accordingly, rather than tax bills among the world's highest - any and all "payback" as benefits or not.

    Your challenge isn't trying to sell Health Scare system improvements.

    Your REAL challenge is how to herd 324 million individuals into a Waring blender so they can be homogenized, bleached grey, stripped of ability to discriminate amongst good, bad, or indifferent because..... non-uniformity offends.

    We have a large number of Danes in the USA, Gordon. Have for a long time.

    You might call them "expatriates".

    Others might say "escapees".

    Easy to spot them for a Dane. They remember your language.

    Your challenge, should you chose to accept it.. is to sort out why Danish ethnicities in the USA are living a cheerful, dynamic, and uncontrolled lifestyles, tranquilizer-free...

    All whilst their ethnic cousins back in Denmark live duller, more homogenized lifestyles and even then.... need one of the highest usage rates of medications on Planet Earth to cope with it.

    Why..Denmark is so dull, even the trolls have to operate offshore, lest they go mad of boredom.

    There's your problem. Just enough untamable Scot left in you to be antsy.

    Had you been a fully native Dane you'd have been automagically dulled-down to not even give any thought as to what the USA did or did not do, had or had not, for Healthscare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    True. They also do not LIVE "elsewhere". Give even the dumbest of those credit for understanding that what goes on as to healthcare someplace they don't live and don't qualify for coverage under isn't really of any use BOTHERING to have an idea of.

    They may be slow.. but they are ahead of YOU on that count.



    But we can say the same. Our healthcare costs may be waaaay to Hell and gone higher than those of Denmark, but our TOTAL tax burden is much lower.

    Results are in the statistics. USA has about $10,000 USD a year - over 20% - higher average Purchasing Power than Denmark NET-NET of those "Free" benefits you after all, still pay for, one way or another.

    We have more as "discretionary" income accordingly, rather than tax bills among the world's highest - any and all "payback" as benefits or not.

    Your challenge isn't trying to sell Health Scare system improvements.

    Your REAL challenge is how to herd 324 million individuals into a Waring blender so they can be homogenized, bleached grey, stripped of ability to discriminate amongst good, bad, or indifferent because..... non-uniformity offends.

    We have a large number of Danes in the USA, Gordon. Have for a long time.

    You might call them "expatriates".

    Others might say "escapees".

    Easy to spot them for a Dane. They remember your language.

    Your challenge, should you chose to accept it.. is to sort out why Danish ethnicities in the USA are living a cheerful, dynamic, and uncontrolled lifestyles, tranquilizer-free...

    All whilst their ethnic cousins back in Denmark live duller, more homogenized lifestyles and even then.... need one of the highest usage rates of medications on Planet Earth to cope with it.

    Why..Denmark is so dull, even the trolls have to operate offshore, lest they go mad of boredom.

    There's your problem. Just enough untamable Scot left in you to be antsy.

    Had you been a fully native Dane you'd have been automagically dulled-down to not even give any thought as to what the USA did or did not do, had or had not, for Healthscare.
    Not sure whether or not to reply but will make a few remarks anyway. The Danes that emigrated to the USA long ago did it for the same reason that almost all other emigrants did. Looking for a better life than they had. For the Irish it was litterally a question of life or death.

    If we look at statistics then the USA is the richest country in the world but I keep remembering that if Bill Gates walked into a bar then everyone in that bar would, on average, become billionaires.

    Almost all in the north of Europe enjoy a very high standard of living and the difference between the "haves" and "have nots" isn't that great. I've never liked the label "The happiest country on Earth" but the vast majority of us is pretty content with our lives and that is NOT because we have low expectations.

    It is true that on paper we do pay high taxes and yet we complain about that much less than Americans do. Probably because we have a very good idea of what we are getting for our money.

    Once upon a time the USA was the country almost all wanted to be like. Do you still believe that to be true?


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