slightly OT tesla battery is switched on in South Australia , mains power
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    Default slightly OT tesla battery is switched on in South Australia , mains power


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    while a substantial achievement, I think its safe to say this was a billionaire's vanity project, Musk having made a personal bet on it.

    wether it is actually economically practical is another matter. how much did the batteries actually cost? how long will it take for the "baseline capacity" provided by the storage to pay that back? remember this is storage only not generation.

    I also wonder how much of the battery production was diverted to make the deadline? is a shortage of batteries holding up model 3 production? hmm..

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    A bit of backstory is the SA government went on the usual trendy renewable energy splurge at the expense of fossil fuel generated electricity.

    They were also luckily connected to other states via transmission lines to cater for any shortfall of electricity.

    A storm came along and the transmission line got blown over, so the state was cut off and had to rely on their own electricity generation needs. Ironically the wind farms were turned off due to too much wind, so the state had a electricity crisis as a gas generating plant also failed at the same time.

    So part of the solution was apparently this huge battery that the state government had to buy.

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    Unfortunately for the Lithium Ion folks, lead acid is still way more bang for the buck, but Tesla is out there promoting their solution, which comes with more forward looking switching/management options. There's no one in the lead acid industry willing to do that.

    'Tain't a bad idea to look into storage for renewable generation. Mostly it's unnecessary, but the naysayers are so hung up on the "sun don't shine at night" argument that it's necessary to advance the industry and calm fears.

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    I wonder what the LOTO procedure is for working on that thing.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    A bit of backstory is the SA government went on the usual trendy renewable energy splurge at the expense of fossil fuel generated electricity.

    They were also luckily connected to other states via transmission lines to cater for any shortfall of electricity.

    A storm came along and the transmission line got blown over, so the state was cut off and had to rely on their own electricity generation needs. Ironically the wind farms were turned off due to too much wind, so the state had a electricity crisis as a gas generating plant also failed at the same time.

    So part of the solution was apparently this huge battery that the state government had to buy.
    You never want to let the realities of engineering get in the way of politics.....

    PDW

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    ....Touché

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    The naysayers are out (I resemble that accusation), but politics and emotions usually trump engineering.

    Brownouts/blackouts in a hot place like SA during peak AC season can get people riled up, not to mention the health dangers for the old and infirm.

    A bit of backstory is the SA government went on the usual trendy renewable energy splurge at the expense of fossil fuel generated electricity.
    Do you think the market should rule?

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    The naysayers are out (I resemble that accusation), but politics and emotions usually trump engineering.

    Brownouts/blackouts in a hot place like SA during peak AC season can get people riled up, not to mention the health dangers for the old and infirm.



    Do you think the market should rule?
    You think that’s awful?
    Look at how the USA treated it’s brown Spanish speaking citizens on the island of Puerto Rico after the hurricane Maria.
    There are still large parts of the island without power.

    Bonus points.
    Contracts went to unqualified friends of our current administration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    You think that’s awful?.....
    No, not at all. I'm in favor of renewables and battery banks and have been working in renewables (mostly wind) for 35 years.

    My first post was to the effect that li-ion banks are more expensive than lead acid for a stationary application, but that the lead acid industry isn't willing to take the risks/do the engineering that Tesla did that was necessary.

    And further, that better grid management would obviate at least some of the need for large storage, but that renewables are a highly emotional subject, with many engineers pooh-poohing renewables because "the sun don't shine at night". More sophisticated analysis and some experience results in a more nuanced view, but the emotional, more reactional views are out there and have influence, so have to be dealt with. Battery banks are one way to do that.

    That was my primary point.

    The followup question (do you think the market should rule?) was for the poster who characterized renewables as trendy. There seems to be two camps of thought, on opposing sides of the climate change divide. One thinks we should invest money in renewables, the other thinks that we should just be buying the cheapest power available and that climate change/CO2 production should not be a factor in that decision.

    What happened/is happening in PR is unconscionable. Competent administration with the financial wherewithal to fix the system should be in place, and isn't. Maybe it has to do with skin color, but I suspect it has more to do with PR not having any representation. And cronyism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    No, not at all. I'm in favor of renewables and battery banks and have been working in renewables (mostly wind) for 35 years.

    My first post was to the effect that li-ion banks are more expensive than lead acid for a stationary application, but that the lead acid industry isn't willing to take the risks/do the engineering that Tesla did that was necessary.

    And further, that better grid management would obviate at least some of the need for large storage, but that renewables are a highly emotional subject, with many engineers pooh-poohing renewables because "the sun don't shine at night". More sophisticated analysis and some experience results in a more nuanced view, but the emotional, more reactional views are out there and have influence, so have to be dealt with. Battery banks are one way to do that.

    That was my primary point.

    The followup question (do you think the market should rule?) was for the poster who characterized renewables as trendy. There seems to be two camps of thought, on opposing sides of the climate change divide. One thinks we should invest money in renewables, the other thinks that we should just be buying the cheapest power available and that climate change/CO2 production should not be a factor in that decision.

    What happened/is happening in PR is unconscionable. Competent administration with the financial wherewithal to fix the system should be in place, and isn't. Maybe it has to do with skin color, but I suspect it has more to do with PR not having any representation. And cronyism.
    Is lead acid the same as basically the old batteries like we had years ago? They really would leak out acid pretty bad. I do not know where all that acid would go is someplace unwanted. Would lithium ion be safe or safer? It is very interesting in concept. With fossil fuel the energy is stored where the oil is stored or gas. The battery is a way to store generated power well it seems like to a novice like myself a very fascinating thing. I do wonder as has been pointed out what the real costs actually are yet if Elon is backing up his offer I say heck fire me off a rocket and deliver me a car yet I will pass on the autopilot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    You think that’s awful?
    Look at how the USA treated it’s brown Spanish speaking citizens on the island of Puerto Rico after the hurricane Maria.
    There are still large parts of the island without power.

    Bonus points.
    Contracts went to unqualified friends of our current administration.
    Always have to throw that Marxist "race conflict theory" into everything, don't you?

    It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics. The Puerto Rican electrical grid had been in notoriously bad shape for years and the hurricane merely finished it off. Now the left is demanding soaking the taxpayers to "rebuild" that mess into a state of the art electrical delivery system. That "unqualified" remark ignores the fact that much of the work on that grid was done by exactly the same kind of "unqualified" workers in the past.

    Puerto Rico already receives over 20 billion dollars a year in federal aid from the United States. Economically the island is a mess and has never been self-sufficient and sustainable. Much of the population lives below the poverty level and without U.S. aid things would be much worse. If the island had a vibrant economy and produced taxes instead of consuming them the electricity would have been restored long ago. Most of the areas still without electricity are in remote areas in the hills where the per household cost of stringing new lines is staggeringly expensive.

    Instead of placing the blame where it really belongs, on the Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority (PREPA) which is bloated, inefficient, and some suspect corrupt, the election losers blame it on the Trump administration.

    Economy of Puerto Rico - Wikipedia

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    For those who don't mind a bit of reading here is the official report on PREPA's shortcomings. The report was commissioned by the Puerto Rico Energy Commission.

    http://energia.pr.gov/wp-content/upl...d-20161123.pdf

    Some key points from the report:

    "PREPA’s reliability has suffered since FY2014"

    "PREPA’s record keeping is sub‐par"

    "PREPA’s budget allocation process is opaque and distortionary"

    "Significant investment and development of core competencies are needed to improve the condition and performance of PREPA’s system"

    "PREPA must begin to think in terms of its actual needs for operation of a safe and reliable system"

    Stop trying to blame Trump for others' failings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    For those who don't mind a bit of reading here is the official report on PREPA's shortcomings. The report was commissioned by the Puerto Rico Energy Commission.

    http://energia.pr.gov/wp-content/upl...d-20161123.pdf

    Some key points from the report:

    "PREPA’s reliability has suffered since FY2014"

    "PREPA’s record keeping is sub‐par"

    "PREPA’s budget allocation process is opaque and distortionary"

    "Significant investment and development of core competencies are needed to improve the condition and performance of PREPA’s system"

    "PREPA must begin to think in terms of its actual needs for operation of a safe and reliable system"

    Stop trying to blame Trump for others' failings.
    Stop pretending the administration has anything but their crony’s in mind
    That fishy contract to rebuild Puerto Rico’s electric grid is now a bona fide scandal. | The New Republic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Always have to throw that Marxist "race conflict theory" into everything, don't you?

    It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics. The Puerto Rican electrical grid had been in notoriously bad shape for years and the hurricane merely finished it off. Now the left is demanding soaking the taxpayers to "rebuild" that mess into a state of the art electrical delivery system. That "unqualified" remark ignores the fact that much of the work on that grid was done by exactly the same kind of "unqualified" workers in the past.

    Puerto Rico already receives over 20 billion dollars a year in federal aid from the United States. Economically the island is a mess and has never been self-sufficient and sustainable. Much of the population lives below the poverty level and without U.S. aid things would be much worse. If the island had a vibrant economy and produced taxes instead of consuming them the electricity would have been restored long ago. Most of the areas still without electricity are in remote areas in the hills where the per household cost of stringing new lines is staggeringly expensive.

    Instead of placing the blame where it really belongs, on the Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority (PREPA) which is bloated, inefficient, and some suspect corrupt, the election losers blame it on the Trump administration.

    Economy of Puerto Rico - Wikipedia
    So does that mean we should stop helping all those red state money holes?
    They take money my too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Is lead acid the same as basically the old batteries like we had years ago? They really would leak out acid pretty bad. .... Would lithium ion be safe or safer? It is very interesting in concept. With fossil fuel the energy is stored where the oil is stored or gas. The battery is a way to store generated power well it seems like to a novice like myself a very fascinating thing. I do wonder as has been pointed out what the real costs actually are ....
    Not really the same, though the components are. Plate thickness, case material, all re-engineered for the unique charging/discharge conditions that renewables impose. No, they don't leak. Same case materials as modern car batteries, with the same 98+% recycling rate. That includes all materials, case and lead components.

    Hard to know the real costs/economics of this particular installation. I imagine Tesla subsidized it some for the publicity and R&D, but you could prob dig and find out more.

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    Perhaps there should be some blame assigned for the PR power fiasco, but really, do you think the consumers should suffer?

    PR deserves a serviceable and functioning grid. It was (almost) totally destroyed by a hurricane, and there's a unique opportunity now to remake it in a modern way. Why not take the opportunity to do so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Always have to throw that Marxist "race conflict theory" into everything, don't you?

    It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics. The Puerto Rican electrical grid had been in notoriously bad shape for years and the hurricane merely finished it off. Now the left is demanding soaking the taxpayers to "rebuild" that mess into a state of the art electrical delivery system. That "unqualified" remark ignores the fact that much of the work on that grid was done by exactly the same kind of "unqualified" workers in the past.

    Puerto Rico already receives over 20 billion dollars a year in federal aid from the United States. Economically the island is a mess and has never been self-sufficient and sustainable. Much of the population lives below the poverty level and without U.S. aid things would be much worse. If the island had a vibrant economy and produced taxes instead of consuming them the electricity would have been restored long ago. Most of the areas still without electricity are in remote areas in the hills where the per household cost of stringing new lines is staggeringly expensive.

    Instead of placing the blame where it really belongs, on the Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority (PREPA) which is bloated, inefficient, and some suspect corrupt, the election losers blame it on the Trump administration.

    Economy of Puerto Rico - Wikipedia
    I am pretty sure that Massachussets was on the Marxist side in the War against Northern Agression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Stop trying to blame Trump for others' failings.
    Goddam straight. He's got a full backpack of his OWN failings that he can't handle right now.

    Poor man. Let's all shed a little tiny silent tear and pass a little tiny hat for the man with the little tiny hands.
    If we collect enough money then maybe mr. trump can pay this round of criminal lawyers and not just
    stiff them like all the other criminal lawyers he's hired in the past.

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