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"State of the Economy"

JimGlass

Stainless
Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Location
Genoa, Illinois
What do you guys think the future holds for us machinists. Right now the economy appears the worst ever for the machinist industry. Spoke with some shop owners that said they were within weeks of closing their doors when a surge of work surfaced last fall. That surge of work has since dissipated.

Can anyone identify a place in the economy with strong machine shop activity.

When will conditions improve, 6 months, a year, NEVER???
Jim Glass
Near Chicago
 
Our shop just keeps enough work coming in to keep doors open.I am trying to decide my next career move.I am sure it wont be running manual machines anymore.Sure is a sad state that our country is sinking into.I think that as more and more shops close now there is less chance of new ones to replace them in the future.I hope I am wrong.
frown.gif
 
When you decide on a career change fill me in, okay. I always thought a good
Tool & Die Maker would always be in demand. I'm not so sure any more. Then, I hear guys complaining they can't find people that can run the manual stuff.

The MSN web page had a spread the managers and health care workers are in demand. Wait and see how health care shakes out as people loose health insurance. All that wonderful health care and NO money to pay for it.
I'm on a rant now....
Jim
 
Jim,

No worries - we'll all have more money in our pockets after Bush's tax plan kicks in and we won't be paying those taxes on all the dividends that keep piling up every quarter.

Mike, near Chicago
 
Jim,

I am a practicing physician (medical oncologist), in it for 32 years.

Regarding health care today as a career, I will not go into the gory details here unless requested.

Suffice it to say that every day I thank God neither of my two grown children went into a health care related field.

My daughter is a chef (culinary arts school grad) and my son is a software designer (Purdue computer science grad) -- both doing very well, with about a third of the stress their dad has.

bnelson
 
There are a few places that are looking for good men. At work we looked for a couple of years to find a good toolmaker and a couple of entry level guys. We finally ended up with three fellas that are smart talented individuals that can machine and think on their own but are not nessarily tool makers. This does not make them bad, in fact I like them quite a bit. But does go to show that in some areas there is a demand. The way that I see things shaking out in the next few years is the probable downsizing of most large shops and the subsequent increase in small 1 to 5 man shops. The large shops have such overhead that they have a hard time competing. With the pressure of imports on manufacturing in general there is increased pressure for OEMs to get their goods and services made for less money. There comes a time when they can buy parts or get dies made from the small shop down the street cheaper than they can make them themselves. There is hope for us toolmakers and machinist yet. We just need to be willing to think way out side the box and find creative ways to stay ahead of the hard times. There is still room for manufacturing in this country as long as people are willing to work harder and smarter for it.

My 2 cents

Take Care

ARB
 
I know what you folk mean. I just took and early out rather than be RIF'ed after 20 years of service. I've got 35 years in the trade as a Machinist and Tool and Die Maker. I figured that if nothing else with the little bit of pension I have coming I could at least find a part-time job somewhere to suppliment. No such luck. I've dropped off resumes all over and not one word so far. Most shop owners won't even take the resume. It kind of looks like I'll have to go to Home Depot or Lowes or something like that. Sure seems like a waste of knowledge and talent for all the years spent working, but I'm still healthy and my mind hasn't slipped to much yet. Rebel49
 
Business is spotty at best for us right now in Los Angeles. We have finished up the last of the surge that hit us in November and just a few small runs coming in every couple of days. Fortunately, our niche is doing any size stamping run from one to 10,000 pcs with an average delivery of 2-5 days. As long as we keep the overhead covered I'm not too worried.
The upside is that the slowdown is giving us a chance to catch up on servicing machines and cleaning the shop. I just decided this evening to rip out my 20' material rack and replace it with machines along the wall in the back part of the shop. The wife says I have been going to too many auctions and buying too much stuff. Shoot, I only brought back 3 pickup loads yesterday from Tuesdays auction.
With all the companies closing around this area we should be in good shape if things rebound.
Les
 
ARB,

Excellent post above. The US steel industry is a perfect example of what you say, with ALL of the huge mills now closed, but some small niche specialty mills prospering right now by working smarter. They've got plenty of business because they are extremely flexible, have the latest tech, and low overhead.

bnelson
 
I just got laid off here on Long Island, NY. Management stupidity lost us all our work, and we had contracts running for years into the future. Their cooky-cutter minds got further acrcanely obfuscated by the wrong management approach being super-imposed on sub-contractors by the aerospace giants. Those stupid people even went so far as to tell as what tools we can have in our toolbox and which to take home.
Management stupidity is increasing geometrically and the result is unheard of amounts of scrap being produced. Then they stand there, wringing their hands, wondering what went wrong, and comming up with all the wrong conclusions and making things worse and worse until contractors don't even accept bids any longer even if they are lower than the competition.

Management tries to fit humanity to their giant computer programs, instead of applying computer power to help the individual on the floor become more productive. Everything is done the exact opposite way as is reasonable. I have no explanation for any of this.

With cheap imports on the rise and becomming a thread to our financial survival, a lefthanded management (reaction) approach seems to be spinning out of all imaginable proportions.

Reading the books by Peter F. Drucker could
help to set things straight again. We have to get back to square one first: allow the worker on the floor some respect and let him make his own decisions. Management is in SUPPORT of the worker, we are not the support for their stupid ambitions to look good. They will look good, automatically, if they do a good job. And they sure don't.

Richard
 
I'm busier than ever in my 1-man garage shop. 4 years ago I quit my moldmaker job after 17 years to try something on my own. I have all manual machines, and very low overhead ($40/hr. shop rate). I mostly do prototype and short run stuff. 4 years ago I was struggling, none of the big companies would even talk to me. Now the big shops with their high overhead are gone and auctioned off, and all of a sudden these big companies are calling looking for me! I can do projects cheap and fast for them, and so far they like that. I don't know how long it will last. The big jobs, in moldmaking at least, are mostly being sent overseas right now, and that's sad to see. All that's left is small jobs and repairs that aren't worth shipping over there. It's hard for a shop owner to make a business go on that.
 
I would like to add my two cents worth by asking if anyone else thinks like I do that a lot of America's problem started when we put MBA's in charge of decision making for an entire industry. The classic example is GM's decsion in the 80's to make all the divisions' cars use the same engines and bodies with minor changes for each division. Sure it saved money, but it also turned a lot of people into import buyers. The same thing in the music industry. It doesn't matter if you have any talent, it only matters if you can fit into a category thatmakes money. Which means that there is nobody out there who can get interesting music on the radio. I have never worked for a company that has had this only problem, but I am sure that many a company has promoted a bean counter into top management and has decided that the worker on the floor is no more than a flesh and blood tool, and is removed from the decision making process. Well, here endeth the vent for today.
 
Well Sidewelder;

Where I work the MBA's have decided to make the work force very lean. The results are like this. We never get anything done becuase we jump from one project to another.
No body learns anything new,because no body gets a chance, not enough time.

I often don't know what I'm supposed to do because someone else makes those decisions.

I was a Tool & Die Maker once and would think out the entire construction process so everything would fall together. For example, I would saw off raw steel and think about the die running in the press weeks down the road all at the same time. Not many people understand this process.

Seems like all I do now is put our fires, sort of speak. Work cannot continue down this path. Things will either get better or much worse.

Then we have a "NEW" company president that keeps cutting product lines and the people associated with those products. He cuts and destroys but never seems to build anything.
Jim

[This message has been edited by JimGlass (edited 01-18-2003).]

[This message has been edited by JimGlass (edited 01-18-2003).]
 
hi metal shifters
welcome to the world of the damned
we in the uk are a little ahead of you
engineers and i dont use this description
lightly are no longer reqd as i said before we are going back to the shed !
last weeks local paper had 1 add for a multi skilled machinst when your not checking limits cleaning out swarf or other duties
they shove a brush up you arse so you can
sweep the floor
they wanted us years ago but not any more
i am glad im nearly 70

david Bath UK
 
Well Dave:

I'm happy to report things are picking up in the Chicago area. For the first time in 9 months I see 2 shops looking for machinists.
The small machine shops claim they have the most work seen in 2 years. One shop that was sweeping the floors 3 months ago has employees working 40 hr/wk.

The industrial sales people, that I see, claim the economy is on the increase. It took a couple of years to get here and will take years to come out of this.

I have steady work in my garage shop. I'm aware we still have problems but also hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Jim
 
To machinist friends who think that this recent cycle is unusual, I have compared it to what the woodworking industry went through in the early 1960's. I think there are fundamental changes, and small shop job-shopping will probably not likely come back on the same scale it existed 10 years ago, *in most communities*.

Before about 1960. Every town of any size had job shop woodworking shops. These made all the wooden parts used by the community. "Sash & door plants" "planing mills", "Millworks" made all the windows, doors, cider tanks, wooden tanks, flooring, bank fixtures, library fixtures, trim, mouldings, farm wagon beds and racks, drying systems and grain routing systems for the feedmill, etc. On a more national scale, there were larger shops making church fitments, theatre installations and organ cases, as well as all the TV and radio consoles, all the telephone switchboards and similar cases, on subcontract to the electronics industry. Nationwide, quite a bit of the population worked in woodworking as a fundamental industry.

By the early 60's, much of the work was going over to plastics and metal; and many of the products had become obsolete (wooden tanks, wooden car parts, e.g.). Then there was national consolidation in millwork (doors, windows, flooring, mouldings) and all the small town (wood) job shops were sold out at auction. Due to a combination of increased technology, and sometimes regulatory issues, some segments of woodworking serving commodity products are only viable as national producers.

Now woodworking jobshop has come back in a widely segregated niches. There is enough custom work for some well managed shops to survive who still do "everything". You don't see a sash and door plant in every town, but there is probably a millworks somewhere regionally that can make most anything an architect can spec for say a library, college, or church restoration or replication in new work. There are a couple outfits in NY that can go anywhere in the country to repair wooden tanks. (if you've ever flown low over NYC, most of the water systems on tall buildings start with a wooden tank on the upper stories) Other than kitchen cabinet shops, the rest of the work is in small custom one or 2 man shops making furniture or millwork essentially for corporate suites, and the very rich. There is very little "regular" year to year subcontract work that can be assumed anymore.

I think this is what is happening in metal job shop. Many products that took vast factories to supply metal logic systems are gone, replaced by silicone. Typewriters, electromechanical switchgear in every piece of communications equipment, cash registers, tabulating machines, watches and clocks, mechanical actuation systems in every piece of equipment now replaced by wires. It's all gone, and the subcontract for dies, tooling, and jobshopping the parts is not going to come back.

Steel rule die shops used to be common. Now they are replaced by waterjets and lasers, requiring far fewer people to do the same work, and other than the programmer, less skill. As recently as the 50's, almost very town used to have a foundry and maybe a couple pattern shops. But most of our products are no longer made with castings; or the castings are too sophisticated to afford to do them except in regional production plants. There used to be several tool sharpening and rebuilding shops in every city, but now edge tools are either insert or disposable. However, there are a few shops that do mail order on a national basis that seem to do pretty well.

More and more industries that used to have a factory in every decent sized town have consolidated to fewer plants, and they require larger, ever more sophistcated vendors to serve them. The amount of machined metal parts in most consumer items is decreased as often as possible to decrease costs. There is still mould and die work, but turn around times mean you have to be very lean, and very efficient. Worse, it probably means the size shop (available manpower) and capital equipment required need to be large. As soon as work slows, the costs are too high.

I think niche specialty shops will always be there, but the work will not come automaticaly just because the owner sends his facilities list around to a few local industries. Those industries are now sourcing their tools and needs internationally. There may actually be a lot more single man shops, whose low over head permits them to take a relatively small amount of "customs" business and do ok with it. There's going to be a few one or 2 man very high production shops running multi-automatics or some machining centers and making a phenomenal income by basically the owner doing all the work and also being able to sell the jobs in the right market. There will be larger job shops and stamping shops, as we know them today, but much fewer of them, and they will all essentially sell nationally. There will be lots more one man small niche shops, making their own product for market. Here and there, towns of a certain size will still have general purpose machine shops who don't mind repair and maintenance work, who will do very very well if the population base is big enough and there is still some industry left. But over all, I think there is just going to be fewer "real" machinist jobs for knob and dial crankers, becasue there is an ever smaller market out there for the products (services) they produce. As the trade diminishes in numbers, I do think that in some areas, there will be well placed and well trained individuals with a lot of insight, who can almost commmand whatever they want for a few rare positions. But these will be a lucky few.

Machinists will always own the fundamental need skills in any society. But the ebb and flow, or even evolution of the society will have an impact on how many are needed, what the work actually "looks" like, and whether they are well compensated as a class or not (market demand).

smt
 
Since the first of August, things have actually picked up quite a bit for us. And since I had reduced the workforce and modified the business plan in July, that figures.
I am working my butt off now and barely able to keep up. I am having to outsource tooling as I don't have the time to make it all.

A longtime customer hit us with an order and engineering change at the same time two days ago. By making the change in the part, it will allow us to supply all their plants in the country, instead of just their local one.

We are going to stay in our niche, heavy stamping and punching. I may have to buy another press even.

Auctions of fabrication and CNC machine shops are continuing at a pretty good pace here in Calif. Depending on what happens with the recall election, we'll see if that trend continues.

So much for my short break this morning, time to go blank out some nice little 1/4" thick 304SS 9" diameter circles.

Les
 








 
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