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    Default Tariffs just put in place.

    The admin just put tariffs in place on solar cells and closths washers.
    I wonder which of his buddies asked for those.
    Solar is interesting.
    Since we don't make any panels or cells here there is no industry to protect.
    In fact the installers say this will cost around 25,000 jobs.
    I guess the real goal there is to artificially drive the cost of solar up.
    Not sure why he would want to do that.

    Washing machines...that might make sense.


    Cool, a trade war to make everything more expensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Not sure why he would want to do that.
    Surely you jest...
    Protectionist move- you know that right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Surely you jest...
    Protectionist move- you know that right?
    We don't have a solar industry to protect.

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    There were a lot of people in the US making solar cells. They were the ones who complained, but now they are all broke and gone so it won't do any good. There's definitely some hidden reasoning going on here, I'd guess it has to do with the Crotch Brothers and coal and oil but who knows.

    Washing machines is South Korea, not China (the Chinese ones suck, no one in their right mind would buy one), and I think it's Hotpoint bitching ? Or Whirlpool ? Or maybe it's revenge and a warning to South Korea for getting together with North Korea for the Olympics ?

    It seems possible that South Korea figured out the Kim doesn't need a missile, a trebuchet would do the job, and maybe playing chicken is not the best way to deal with nukular weapons ten miles away ? That doesn't fit into the Axis of Evil schtick that Washington is hell-bent on playing, and revenge/punishmsnt is just their style.

    The whole thing is theater, there's no US manufacturing to protect, so who knows but surely seems like a game to show how Tough this administration is, without ruffling any US feathers. Does Walmart sell Samsung washers ? Or are they pissed that maybe someone else might and cut into their market ?

    Buncha backstabbing crap that has nothing to do with national interest or trade. The last Big Deal the US Trade Rep negotiated with China was for bottled water. Whoop-dee-doo. We've already got 85 brands of bottled water, like twelve cases of Arrowhead is going to compensate for all electronic and mechanical and automotive manufacturing being sent to China ?

    And now these dipshits want to threaten the place that supplies 2/3 of the stuff sold in the US ? Hmmm. How do you guys like it when your customers threaten you ?

    That's what I thought.

    There are actual exports that he could help without starting any trade war but I've got a hundred dollar bill that says that ain't gonna happen.

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    Do we think Kim is crazy enough to heave a nuke ten miles away from his own country? (Although it's not like NK can get much worse, so what's a little radiation between comrades?)

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    If you want the backstory on why the washers are getting the tariff I can tell you.

    Starting in 2011 both LG and Samsung (both South Korean companies) would illegally dump (sell at a loss) washers into the American market to weaken the American manufacturers and gain market share. As soon as American manufacturers got wind of it and tried to get an injunction against the import of these, LG and Samsung would move the assembly plant to a different country. Basically trying to sidestep regulations against dumping product into our economy. They did this 5 times.

    Yesterday they got the hammer.

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    "We don't make solar cells"

    No, not at the moment because they were undercut by subsidized imports but several companies still have the tooling and processes and were just waiting for a fair shake.

    Expect a new generation of higher capacity cells and some interesting related "stuff" in the not-too-distant future.

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    We Americans are so misled and so stupid we believe every fairytale and con man.
    Goggle your state with solar manufacturing and find some trying to have a business in this field. But Americans are now led to hate rich people so would rather give business the needy of China and India. Needless to say the riches just goes to the rich people of those countries and the poor stay poor.
    Subsidized shipping is the one that should be stopped. The UN pays much of the shipping and we can’t compete. It cost me more to ship one box of 344 circular cutters to Ubly Michigan (about 80 miles away) than it costs a China shop to ship all the way from China.

    Americans used to be led by grandfathers and now are led by watching Hollywood movies and con men.
    Grandfathers actually means history not that actual grandfathers. Some cultures know that what went around likely will come around. If you let the con men lead you then you may become the kitten thrown in the rive
    I suspect we may become socialist and then communists with the stupid thinking I see in the USA..That way everybody will be dirt poor.. much more fair...much more stupid..(Yes the highest government people will still be jet setters.)
    Welcome to Ubly Michigan - Village of Ubly

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    We failed to invest in basic research and god forbid subsidize the (solar) industry back under Reagan.
    The Chinese did not have such Qualms and dominated.
    Tariffs- too little too late- but I have no doubt that the industry this is designed to protect is not solar but the established fossil fuel interests.

    The Chinese are tripling EV manufacturing in the next two years.
    There is a cry to not subsidize EV in the US.
    So some years from now we will also be unable to compete in this industry.

    It is far too late to cry fair trade over solar.
    Ev will be next- it is almost a certainty.

    This move has nothing to do with trade however- it is a simple move to castrate alternative energy growth in the United States.
    A move which ironically will directly decay our ability to compete in world markets driving further last ditch protectionist policy agendas.

    Simple castration: "let them compete" was not going nearly far enough for this agenda:

    “I would do away with these incentives that we give to wind and solar,” Scott Pruitt, the chief of the Environmental Protection Agency, said in October. “I’d let them stand on their own and compete against coal and natural gas.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    We failed to invest in basic research and god forbid subsidize the (solar) industry back under Reagan.
    The Chinese did not have such Qualms and dominated.
    Tariffs- too little too late- but I have no doubt that the industry this is designed to protect is not solar but the established fossil fuel interests.

    The Chinese are tripling EV manufacturing in the next two years.
    There is a cry to not subsidize EV in the US.
    So some years from now we will also be unable to compete in this industry.

    It is far too late to cry fair trade over solar.
    Ev will be next- it is almost a certainty.
    We do not need to subsidize the manufacture of solar cells. The tariffs will serve to level the playing field against subsidized imports.

    Do a little research some time on what happened to advanced solar cell development in Germany once the country was flooded with cheap Chinese cells.

    IMO subsidies actually retard development as "just good enough to satisfy rules" products get sold in place of more advanced ones whose features make them attractive even at higher cost.

    We shouldn't subsidize EV manufacture in the United States. EVs will gain significant market share when they EARN their place in vehicle sales by being attractive replacements for IC vehicles WITHOUT the artificial stimulus of government subsidies.

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    Of course not- never invest in a sector of the economy.
    It is simply impossible to create a market and a nations role in that market by supporting basic research, development and application opportunities.

    Wait till another nation has done that work and then try to protect the industries you have failed to assist by broad tariffs.

    Tariffs in this case are too little too late.
    Their necessity was lain by short sighted management of national resources under Reagan.

    Again- this move however has nothing to do with the the solar market.
    It is advanced to promote the agenda that the only manner in which the US can complete globally is though the development of cheap fossil fuel reserves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    "We don't make solar cells"

    No, not at the moment because they were undercut by subsidized imports but several companies still have the tooling and processes and were just waiting for a fair shake.

    /
    S-O-L-Y-N-D-R-A

    But Liberals all have memory loss issues,
    short term and longer term.

    Selective at that.

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    Completely wrong on facts.
    --
    But as You said subsidies MAY in fact retard better products.
    This is the case e.g. with US oil and gas and coal interests.
    And is ALSO the case with the US PV sellable tax credit, a terrible implementation.

    There are more jobs in US PV/green than in oil/gas/coal combined. Today. Growing fast..
    The PV jobs are globally competitive ..

    And You seem to want to reduce those US PV/green jobs ??
    Why on earth ?
    --
    The EV auto market has doubled every 18 months, more or less, 4-5 years.
    About 1-1.5% last year 2017, of new cars sold globally.
    In realistic markets EV is 3-5% or so..
    The EV growth rate is accelerating.

    For == 2 years I have declared that in 2018, +/- 1 year, Big Auto dies and the global auto industry disrupts.
    We shall see.

    Today .. I expect the collapse of 1 out of 4 of the US Big Auto corps, collapse of VW.
    My 2018 prediction, +/- 1 year, stands, for the same.
    Yes, I may be wrong on timing.

    In 2017 about 1.2 M EVs/NEVs were sold.
    In 2018, maybe 2M-2.5M.
    In 2019, maybe 3-5M.

    I grew through similar major shifts in computing, PCs, RAM, processors, sw, MBs, internet, routers, firewalls, opsys etc.
    Markets are forward-looking.


    1.
    The solar cell manufacturers, china, are profitable. No subsidies.
    (About 80% of the chinese companies got killed or went BK in the last 8 years).

    Current china PV panels are made at about 0.30$/W costs, and sold around 0.35$-0.38$.

    2.
    There are zero advanced german solar cell companies.
    There never were.
    They ran off very high german subsidies, mostly, until around 2010-2013.

    3.
    I disagree Scottl --
    The US should very much subsidise the EV cars, since if YOU do not, the chinese will take over the global EV market.

    And then the whole global auto market.
    85% of all cars are not sold in the US, and if a US car company is not best-in-class globally it will not survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    1.
    We do not need to subsidize the manufacture of solar cells. The tariffs will serve to level the playing field against subsidized imports.

    2.
    Do a little research some time on what happened to advanced solar cell development in Germany once the country was flooded with cheap Chinese cells.

    IMO subsidies actually retard development as "just good enough to satisfy rules" products get sold in place of more advanced ones whose features make them attractive even at higher cost.

    3.
    We shouldn't subsidize EV manufacture in the United States. EVs will gain significant market share when they EARN their place in vehicle sales by being attractive replacements for IC vehicles WITHOUT the artificial stimulus of government subsidies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    "We don't make solar cells"

    No, not at the moment because they were undercut by subsidized imports but several companies still have the tooling and processes and were just waiting for a fair shake.

    Expect a new generation of higher capacity cells and some interesting related "stuff" in the not-too-distant future.
    Bull shit.

    Trump’s “America First” policy on solar panels will likely benefit China — Quartz

    We had a choice...support the industry or not.
    We didn't, they did.
    We lost.

    Before china expanded their subsidies the USA solar industry was already collapsing under the load of subsidized fossil fuels.
    They were buying factories full of polycrystaline foundries from defunct companies.
    The fossil fuel industry wanted solar dead, so the killed it.
    Now they are scared of cheap solar from countries smart enough to see which way the wind was blowing with balls enough to stand up to the fossil fuel industry.

    The tariffs will kill tens of thousands of installation jobs, cost consumers more and not add significant jobs in the manufacturing sector.
    What it will do is further cripple the advance of solar, putting more money in the fossil fuel industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    We failed to invest in basic research and god forbid subsidize the (solar) industry back under Reagan.
    The Chinese did not have such Qualms and dominated.
    Tariffs- too little too late- but I have no doubt that the industry this is designed to protect is not solar but the established fossil fuel interests.

    The Chinese are tripling EV manufacturing in the next two years.
    There is a cry to not subsidize EV in the US.
    So some years from now we will also be unable to compete in this industry.

    It is far too late to cry fair trade over solar.
    Ev will be next- it is almost a certainty.

    This move has nothing to do with trade however- it is a simple move to castrate alternative energy growth in the United States.
    A move which ironically will directly decay our ability to compete in world markets driving further last ditch protectionist policy agendas.

    Simple castration: "let them compete" was not going nearly far enough for this agenda:

    “I would do away with these incentives that we give to wind and solar,” Scott Pruitt, the chief of the Environmental Protection Agency, said in October. “I’d let them stand on their own and compete against coal and natural gas.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    We do not need to subsidize the manufacture of solar cells. The tariffs will serve to level the playing field against subsidized imports.

    Do a little research some time on what happened to advanced solar cell development in Germany once the country was flooded with cheap Chinese cells.

    IMO subsidies actually retard development as "just good enough to satisfy rules" products get sold in place of more advanced ones whose features make them attractive even at higher cost.

    We shouldn't subsidize EV manufacture in the United States. EVs will gain significant market share when they EARN their place in vehicle sales by being attractive replacements for IC vehicles WITHOUT the artificial stimulus of government subsidies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Of course not- never invest in a sector of the economy.
    It is simply impossible to create a market and a nations role in that market by supporting basic research, development and application opportunities.

    Wait till another nation has done that work and then try to protect the industries you have failed to assist by broad tariffs.

    Tariffs in this case are too little too late.
    Their necessity was lain by short sighted management of national resources under Reagan.

    Again- this move however has nothing to do with the the solar market.
    It is advanced to promote the agenda that the only manner in which the US can complete globally is though the development of cheap fossil fuel reserves.
    It's amazing how Scott can look directly at history and stick to his ideology.
    Fact, we did not support our solar industry.
    Fact, the Chinese did and captured the market.
    Fact, the tariffs will not help our industry and will hurt consumers.

    Now, china is investing in EV nad Scott says we shouldn't.
    In 15 years they will have already made the mistakes and learned the lessons.
    Then a tariffs will be put in place.
    And the same thing will happen.
    The cost will go up, but we won't have the industrial ability to catch up.

    Amazing.
    Scott, a great deal of what made this nations industrial power was direct federal investment...and you cling to an imaginary history.

    If we had followed up on solar reasearch starting in the 70s we would have an insurmountable lead. But Reagan killed the project leaving the door open for others to move into the sector.
    Now turnip is going to kill tens of thousands of jobs ininstalation to prop up fossil fuels.
    The cost to consumers of this tariffs will be huge, that money would have been better spent supporting our own economy, not penalizing consumers for short sighted policy.
    Same for the EV sector.

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    Good start to getting the USA working again. Solar is crap.

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    I'm wondering who is going to benefit from tariffs. Products with tariffs are going to become more expensive no matter where they are made. I'm sure there's a reason that Walmart and similar places are as popular as they are.

    When I buy something I'm more interested in what I'm getting for my money than where it comes from. Having said that then if price and quality was the same I'd buy a "Made In Denmark".

    Is there anyone that can claim that more than 75% of what they have is in fact made in their own country? And NO, kids don't count

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I'm wondering who is going to benefit from tariffs. Products with tariffs are going to become more expensive no matter where they are made.

    When I buy something I'm more interested in what I'm getting for my money than where it comes from. Having said that then if price and quality was the same I'd buy a "Made In Denmark".

    Is there anyone that can claim that more than 75% of what they have is in fact made in their own country? And NO kids don't count
    Easy...the fossil fuels industry.
    Across the nation there is a concerted effort to strangle renewables before they can cut into fossil fuels dominance.

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    Good start to getting the USA working again.is to bring some work back to the US..

    Even if products cost more...

    If we added the true cost of shipping many China products would cost 8 to 10% more. Good we pay that with our income tax...nit.

    The service and retail only does not work.. K Mark, Sears and JC penney are about going belly up and out-of-work people cut their own grass..

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Good start to getting the USA working again.is to bring some work back to the US..
    The service a r retail does not work.. K Mark, Sears and JC penney are about going belly up and out of work people cut their own grass..
    By killing tens of thousands of installation jobs?
    By passing the cost to consumers in the form of increased energy and component costs?

    Trump’s “America First” policy on solar panels will likely benefit China — Quartz


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