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  1. #1621
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    First: You said NATO brought peace after WWII

    You said this, no one else

    Yugoslavia[and its many replacements] is in Europe

    Yugslavia[Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia] was at war for a decade

    War is not peace


    you are, what, senile?
    NATO brought peace that is not disputed except by your self, I have to wonder why that is this is the case. Maybe because you eat your own constituency to be like a shine baby. Only to yourself are the culprit. Pretty sick if you have asked me gus surely you do not mean that yet you sure do give the impression you condone this that NATO does not in fact bring peace to Europe. Go figure -a long time Gus and even triple more time for you to get it through your thick skull!

  2. #1622
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonok View Post
    I dunno.

    I'm biased, because I knew a lot of Serbs in the 80's and '90s, but it seemed a lot more like the Serbs knew damned well what was coming if they let the Croats take over, and were doing their best to save themselves from what appeared to be eradication.



    //Flame On/
    Not a lot of innocent parties there...
    Serbs took over first...then The Croats.
    Then the slaughter.

  3. #1623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    NATO brought peace that is not disputed except by your self, I have to wonder why that is this is the case. Maybe because you eat your own constituency to be like a shine baby. Only to yourself are the culprit. Pretty sick if you have asked me gus surely you do not mean that yet you sure do give the impression you condone this that NATO does not in fact bring peace to Europe. Go figure -a long time Gus and even triple more time for you to get it through your thick skull!
    Hard to say that spin, since there wasn’t peace.
    It did stop Soviet advances.

    And yes, an argument can be made that during the Cold War, nato and the Warsaw Pact kept the peace in the Euro theater.

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  5. #1624
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    My [purely American] recollection is Clinton begging the NATO allies to step in and do something but they[cough cough France cough] would do nothing until the atrocities were dominating the news cycle.

    not particularly a fan of foreign intervention, but sometimes you have to do something.

    I just feel that had serious political intervention with real threats been carried out sooner, there would be a lot fewer dead Bosnian s now.

    but sometimes you have to let history play out.

    The Balkan wars horrified me because they were not third world countries, these were not uneducated tribes blindly attacking each other for wearing the wrong color. This was a European community slaughtering their next door neighbors because they were th e wrong religion

    While spinit was asleep apparently
    Spinit does sleep as any human believe I try hard to sleep.Lets all agree here sleep is good. I see your point yet you tire me too much to consider what you say. I do not consider it worth while considering your complete previous posts -honestly for me, IMO. ll your wide points are missed upon me and most all of us as specifically we do not know what you are saying. Can you be specific? I hope so.

    Gus aren't you talking about something regarding Yugoslavia which we all do not understand ? What does this have to do with anything regarding what we discussed with you? I specifically discussed on this forum direct to you Gus. Own up! You and your buddy Gordon need to back off my s##. you both cross the line because I will call your BS and Anti American BS also every time.! Get over it Trump is the POTUS get over it . It is most sad with Gus because he lives in the US, Gordon is opposed to everything US and that is clear whoever is POTUS. Now both of you back off my As#S.! Gang up on someone else who can spend the time to correct you like the other posters who care to disagree with you. A waste of time I d believe guys!

    Basically both you guys need to go jump.....off the cliff together and holding hands also!


    I

  6. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Hard to say that spin, since there wasn’t peace.
    It did stop Soviet advances.

    And yes, an argument can be made that during the Cold War, nato and the Warsaw Pact kept the peace in the Euro theater.
    Yes Miguels there was peace compared to 1914 or so to 1945 . After that the Marshall plan and the creation of NATO which was a big counterbalance to the Soviet Union with the Iron curtain and the eastern europe countries which were taken during WW2. Given the fall of the Iron Curtain I will say it was about time Germany was reunited! Maybe our" FRIEND"S in Mass and Denmark do not remember that and I am sorry for their dismissal.

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  9. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by bucktruck View Post
    Spinit, on at least two occasions you've quoted me directly and posted a response. Both times you completely missed the point of what I was saying and responded almost nonsensically.

    Perhaps you should re-read both the post you are responding to, as well as your own post, before hitting reply. You seem like a nice enough guy but sometimes your written word is very difficult to understand.
    Anyone can miss something my friend. please send me the post and I will be glad to reply. OK?

  10. #1628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Yes Miguels there was peace compared to 1914 or so to 1945 . After that the Marshall plan and the creation of NATO which was a big counterbalance to the Soviet Union with the Iron curtain and the eastern europe countries which were taken during WW2. Given the fall of the Iron Curtain I will say it was about time Germany was reunited! Maybe our riends in Mass and Denmark do not remember that and I am sorry for their dismissal.
    Relative...key word there.
    Tell the Serbs and Croats they only had a relative genocide.
    Nato was a counter balance to Warsaw Pact aggression.
    It’s just a possible to say the soviets kept the peace in Europe by providing a common enemy.

    NATO was not a peace keeper, it was a deterrent.
    Peace, such as it was, was a side effect.

    Don’t forget spin...the only time NATO has come to the defense of a neighbor was after 9/11 when the us asked for help.

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  12. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Relative...key word there.
    Tell the Serbs and Croats they only had a relative genocide.
    Nato was a counter balance to Warsaw Pact aggression.
    It’s just a possible to say the soviets kept the peace in Europe by providing a common enemy.

    NATO was not a peace keeper, it was a deterrent.
    Peace, such as it was, was a side effect.

    Don’t forget spin...the only time NATO has come to the defense of a neighbor was after 9/11 when the us asked for help.
    You are correct. Granted I did not think of that even though my step daughter was involved. Go United States Navy!

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    Damn spinit, you really need to take a chill pill or two. You are calling people all kinds of names. tell them to bring it on, telling people to go jump off a cliff. The posters on hear are giving their opinions, as you yourself are. I don't know if you have noticed, but I quit responding to you because I could tell something was changing.
    As I said in I believe it was my last response to to you, I hope all is well.

  14. #1631
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazygoat View Post
    Damn spinit, you really need to take a chill pill or two. You are calling people all kinds of names. tell them to bring it on, telling people to go jump off a cliff. The posters on hear are giving their opinions, as you yourself are. I don't know if you have noticed, but I quit responding to you because I could tell something was changing.
    As I said in I believe it was my last response to to you, I hope all is well.
    In reply only to their names.

  15. #1632
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    Crazy you are not really crazy if you can see others disagreeing with you then you can see the same with me. I am only responding. Look at the sequence.

  16. #1633
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    Gusto Man and Gordon why don't you focus on someone else as I am tired of your Views. Go to someone else that LIKES to argue with your points of view which I disagree with all day long. Just jump off the cliff following the leaders you choose. Of course it is as you say the Orange one and so you choose someone lessor in status.

  17. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Nevertheless, is there a need to insult and name call? We are all ignorant just of different things to paraphrase Will Rogers. Just my opinion, but I think when you do so, which is very frequently, it detracts from your points.

    See the good, and with Spinit its fairly gentlemanly behaviour that we could perhaps learn from. He's not ill informed of how to interact in a positive way, right?
    This. I've disagreed a number of times with Spinit, but neither of us have thrown puerile insults at the other.

    I frankly have little time for gustafson. He's worse than Miguel but not as bright.

    PDW

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  19. #1635
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    You guys sure love to play Army, and refight old wars.

    Meanwhile, on the Trade and Tariff front-
    Yet another company has announced that the tariffs will result in fewer American jobs.
    BMW is shifting production of some models from their Spartanburg plant, in the US, to other factories in other countries.
    BMW, interestingly enough, is the largest exporter of automobiles from the USA- bigger than Ford, or Chevy, or Toyota.

    And they will be exporting fewer of them.

    The USA is basically a static market for cars. We have up years and down years, but no hope for significant long term growth.
    So our only hope to grow our auto industry, and make more jobs here, is export.

    These tariffs are doing the opposite- they are cutting down on exports.

    Again and again, companies, whether they have US names or not, are global in their markets, and are shifting manufacturing to countries that are not having a trade war. If you can manufacture elsewhere, your product will be cheaper and more saleable globally.

    My guess is many other "american" companies are doing this too, just more quietly.

    GM has many factories in china, and can easily export from china to other countries- cutting US workers out of the deal entirely, and still make the same, or more profits.

    Same thing with other "US" companies with significant foreign factories.
    Kohler plumbing fixtures sell as premium, US brand name product globally. And Kohler has big factories in China, but they have 50 factories on six continents.
    Caterpillar has 20 factories in China
    Lincoln Welder has 63 factories in 23 countries.

    dozens more name brands that you think are "american" actually have manufacturing globally, and are right now shifting product runs to countries that are NOT being hit by tariffs in return for Trump's petulant behavior.

    We are going to see more and more of this.

    Mexico just made a deal with the EU to buy cheese, because US cheese just got 30% more expensive due to the silly tariffs.
    Those jobs wont come back.

    I keep saying it, but its true.

    Those jobs wont come back.

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  21. #1636
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    This. I've disagreed a number of times with Spinit, but neither of us have thrown puerile insults at the other.

    I frankly have little time for gustafson. He's worse than Miguel but not as bright.

    PDW
    Piss off...
    I’m more likely to agree with Gus, but he’s an ideological wing bag.

  22. #1637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    You guys sure love to play Army, and refight old wars.

    Meanwhile, on the Trade and Tariff front-
    Yet another company has announced that the tariffs will result in fewer American jobs.
    BMW is shifting production of some models from their Spartanburg plant, in the US, to other factories in other countries.
    BMW, interestingly enough, is the largest exporter of automobiles from the USA- bigger than Ford, or Chevy, or Toyota.

    And they will be exporting fewer of them.

    s here, is export.
    The Spartanburg plant just announced they were hiring 600+.

  23. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazygoat View Post
    The Spartanburg plant just announced they were hiring 600+.
    As a percent of general growth is that meaningful?
    If their next plant is elsewhere for the cost of import taxes how will that be reported.
    Are they just filling gaps until they can get out of trumpland?

  24. #1639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    As a percent of general growth is that meaningful?
    If their next plant is elsewhere for the cost of import taxes how will that be reported.
    Are they just filling gaps until they can get out of trumpland?
    3 questions I do not know the answers to. I don't really keep up with they are doing.

  25. #1640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    You guys sure love to play Army, and refight old wars.

    Meanwhile, on the Trade and Tariff front-
    Yet another company has announced that the tariffs will result in fewer American jobs.
    BMW is shifting production of some models from their Spartanburg plant, in the US, to other factories in other countries.
    BMW, interestingly enough, is the largest exporter of automobiles from the USA- bigger than Ford, or Chevy, or Toyota.

    And they will be exporting fewer of them.

    Those jobs wont come back.
    OK, That makes no sense. Tariffs on imports sends exporters on the run?

    Makes no sense.

    Is it the price of steel and alu? Where is it coming from now?


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