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  1. #1581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K View Post
    Again, meaningless information, even if it's correct. I'm going to have my friends over much more often than I will have intruders. To have this information put out there just seems idiotic to me.
    And, you roughly double the rate of fatal accident in your house hold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Yes, and I might add that they had no idea what the future held as far as technological advances in communications, transportation etc. but I'm certain that the right of the people "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" would be expected to extend to computers, cell phones and electronic communications not intended for a broad audience. Today, it is not uncommon for cops to seize the cell phones of all bystanders near incidents and search through their files and contacts.

    And one reason gun owners tend to be "more fanatical" is because we have seen and experienced first hand just how unreasonable many "reasonable restrictions" can be. Imagine having to hire an expensive attorney in order to have a permit/license you have held for over thirty years without incident renewed, simply because a politically minded police chief seeks to reduce the number of gun owners. It happens frequently in Massachusetts, especially in certain cities and towns.
    What? Surely this can't happen in "the land of the free"?

    https://adghyouth.files.wordpress.co...ts-denmark.pdf

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  5. #1583
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Actually it's a fake statistic, partly distorted by including thugs with illegally owned guns as "gun owners". Plenty of members of the non gun owning public have been shot, stabbed, beaten or raped during the commission of crimes. In one of the most tragic cases I've heard of the robber said "break yourself" and when the victim didn't understand that the phrase meant turn over anything of value the teen shot him for resisting.

    I know hundreds of people who've had guns in their homes for years and never had a problem. The handful of cases I know of all resulted from someone pointing a supposedly empty gun at another person as a "joke" and pulling the trigger, and most of those were illegally owned guns kept by teenagers in blighted neighborhoods. In over forty years I only personally know of ONE case involving suburban teens with a legally owned long gun. The parties involved were not known to me but were known to friends. Very tragic but fortunately also very rare. Even in the inner cities where guns are rampant accidental shootings are miniscule and very rare compared to the intentional ones.
    you love to talk the fake news angle, but how about this:

    Mass. had lowest gun death rate in the country in 215, study says - The Boston Globe
    Massachusetts had the lowest gun death rate in the country in 2015, newly released federal data shows, and advocacy groups on Tuesday attributed the state’s ranking to its tough firearm laws.

    There were 213 gun deaths in the state in 2015, for a rate of 3.13 per 100,000 residents, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

    The CDC calculates the gun death rate by dividing fatalities by the state’s population and multiplying that figure by 100,000. Total gun deaths include homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings.

    The states with the next lowest rates in 2015 were Hawaii at 3.84 deaths per 100,000, New York at 4.29, Rhode Island at 4.83, and Connecticut at 5.26. The highest firearm death rates were 23.97 per 100,000 in Alaska, 20.38 in Louisiana, 19.85 in Montana, 19.72 in Alabama, and 19.68 in Mississippi.

    Ow about you put your money where your mouth is and leave the safe regulated confines of the people's republic and move to Louisiana where gun ownership is twice as high as Mass, so it is utopia, right?

    foolishness

    get off the alt right sites and look at actual facts


    :

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  7. #1584
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    And, you roughly double the rate of fatal accident in your house hold.



    You wouldn't double the rate, you'd double the chance. But that chance is only based upon how sloppy the gun owner is about safety. I think this statistic is only made up to scare people into a decision of not owning a firearm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K View Post
    You wouldn't double the rate, you'd double the chance. But that chance is only based upon how sloppy the gun owner is about safety. I think this statistic is only made up to scare people into a decision of not owning a firearm.
    It's not made up, it's observed.
    And it's still true.
    Having a gun doubles the chance of fatal accident.
    Guns do not make you safer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    It's not made up, it's observed.
    And it's still true.
    Having a gun doubles the chance of fatal accident.
    Guns do not make you safer.


    First, I didn't say it was made up. Second, You said you'd double your rate of a fatal accident, I was only correcting you that you'd double the chance, not the rate.
    Now I noticed you changed your statement to agree with what I said.
    Guns make you safer against an intruder. How's that? Forget about in general. They make you safer when confronted with an intruder. So, a gun owner accepts the small risk of an accident, to gain the upper hand in the event of an intruder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K View Post
    First, I didn't say it was made up. Second, You said you'd double your rate of a fatal accident, I was only correcting you that you'd double the chance, not the rate.
    Now I noticed you changed your statement to agree with what I said.
    Guns make you safer against an intruder. How's that? Forget about in general. They make you safer when confronted with an intruder. So, a gun owner accepts the small risk of an accident, to gain the upper hand in the event of an intruder.
    Yes, you did...read your quote.
    ...this statistic is only made up...

    You hypothetical intruder is more likely to be friend or family.
    So the choice really is to increase the risk of shooting a loved one...on the very slight chance you happen to have your gun handy when a hostile intruder arrives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Hi Miguels

    regarding firearms in the home I hand no problem if they are secured from me,my family , and especially young Gand children. I have one revolver in a biometric and key entry. Having said that the small two gun safety only one right now will flip open by itself no unlock,no biometric print and obviously I need to take it back in to get expert attention. I have locked ammo in a different locale and the revolver is empty. I understand if this safe worked properly it defeats the purpose of having it yet I feel safer. Y'all buy good safes and make sure they work and avoid a possible accident and a broken heart to boot. Be safe my friends.
    Spinet.
    I used to keep the shotgun by the bed.
    When I had a kid it went I got the safe with the rest.
    When I camp I bring the SKS...plenty for what might wander through camp around here.
    Backpacking...the hi power.
    At home, the safe is locked, but there's a solid chunk of oak around every corner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Yes, you did...read your quote.
    ...this statistic is only made up...

    You hypothetical intruder is more likely to be friend or family.
    So the choice really is to increase the risk of shooting a loved one...on the very slight chance you happen to have your gun handy when a hostile intruder arrives.



    Ok, I just worded it wrong. I meant to say, that statistic is put out there, only to help scare people from owning a gun. When I said made up, I meant put together and put out there, not fake. Sorry bout that.

    But when you state my hypothetical intruder is likely to be friend or family, that also is hypothetical. I simply don't think this statistic has much worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K View Post
    Ok, I just worded it wrong. I meant to say, that statistic is put out there, only to help scare people from owning a gun. When I said made up, I meant put together and put out there, not fake. Sorry bout that.

    But when you state my hypothetical intruder is likely to be friend or family, that also is hypothetical. I simply don't think this statistic has much worth.
    People make mistakes.
    You made one, you are making another as well.
    If you want your family to be safer, lock the guns up.
    Then learn to use a stick...or the exit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    People make mistakes.
    You made one, you are making another as well.
    If you want your family to be safer, lock the guns up.
    Then learn to use a stick...or the exit.



    Not sure how usefull a stick is in a gun fight. Also not sure an exit will be available if an intruder finds me in a room. I'm not disagreeing with the results of that stat, I just don't see what the point of it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K View Post
    Not sure how usefull a stick is in a gun fight. Also not sure an exit will be available if an intruder finds me in a room. I'm not disagreeing with the results of that stat, I just don't see what the point of it is.
    Dave,

    I could point you to stats about accidental discharge of firearms, and use of firearms in suicides that are very sobering. But I think there have been enough stats tossed around.

    Instead I think we should ask the question, " is it reasonable under any circumstance whatever to place our children at risk by having firearms in the home unless they are absolutely secured in a gun safe.?" Even then we have seen children gain access to firearms. They're clever little rascals and they find ways to get into things they ought not. I'll qualify what I'm saying by raising another point. I do think it's very important to acquaint children with guns if they are kept in the home at all. Kids are curious and if they're simply told to leave the guns alone, their curiosity is apt to run wild. Then they start thinking about ways to get at the guns.

    Just wanted to make these points. Not saying that I'm all right and others are wrong.

    Squire




    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    Dave,

    I could point you to stats about accidental discharge of firearms, and use of firearms in suicides that are very sobering. But I think there have been enough stats tossed around.

    Instead I think we should ask the question, " is it reasonable under any circumstance whatever to place our children at risk by having firearms in the home unless they are absolutely secured in a gun safe.?" Even then we have seen children gain access to firearms. They're clever little rascals and they find ways to get into things they ought not. I'll qualify what I'm saying by raising another point. I do think it's very important to acquaint children with guns if they are kept in the home at all. Kids are curious and if they're simply told to leave the guns alone, their curiosity is apt to run wild. Then they start thinking about ways to get at the guns.

    Just wanted to make these points. Not saying that I'm all right and others are wrong.

    Squire




    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK




    Point is well taken. If I had kids, I'd probably remove the guns from the home completely. But that would just be my personal choice. My main point I guess, is that Miguel's stat, really points out something that's so blatantly obvious, I just don't see where there's any benefit in someone doing that study on it. If I went on an airplane, only when I went on vacation, let's say once per year, and my next door neighbor flew almost daily because of his job, then he stands a much higher chance of dying in a plane crash than I do. Do I gain anything by having someone do a study so that I know what the percentages are in that equation? Just seems like useless information to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Guns do not make you safer.
    Who fucking cares ? I should hide under the bed all day ? Never go outside, buy life insurance health insurance car insurance pet insurance never ride in the back of a pickup truck, always fasten my five-point harness and wear a helmet, get vaccinated for every potential sickness on the planet, don't go in the sun don't go in the water don't eat meat don't eat vegetables don't have sex don't like anyone don't get old don't speak loudly don't use nasty words don't don't don't ?

    Why don't I just fucking curl up and die, get it over with ?

    Safe can go pound sand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave K View Post
    Not sure how usefull a stick is in a gun fight. Also not sure an exit will be available if an intruder finds me in a room. I'm not disagreeing with the results of that stat, I just don't see what the point of it is.
    Anything inside of 20 fewer or so a gun is less effective than than a knife.
    A stick in the hand of a trained user is more effective then a knife, because it's longer and has two ends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Who fucking cares ? I should hide under the bed all day ? Never go outside, buy life insurance health insurance car insurance pet insurance never ride in the back of a pickup truck, always fasten my five-point harness and wear a helmet, get vaccinated for every potential sickness on the planet, don't go in the sun don't go in the water don't eat meat don't eat vegetables don't have sex don't like anyone don't get old don't speak loudly don't use nasty words don't don't don't ?

    Why don't I just fucking curl up and die, get it over with ?

    Safe can go pound sand.
    Fine, just don't use safer as an excuse.

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    Anything inside of 20 fewer or so a gun is less effective than than a knife.
    Not if he's pointing a gun at me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Fine, just don't use safer as an excuse.
    I don't

    As an excuse, I use the fact that it is a fundamental part of the legal charter for the United States. If you don't like that, fine. Change it.

    Otherwise, it is what it is and whining and crying doesn't change the why and wherefore of it. If a majority of the people of the US want to change, then do so. Otherwise all these endruns are just as shitty as 'separate but equal'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Who fucking cares ? I should hide under the bed all day ? Never go outside, buy life insurance health insurance car insurance pet insurance never ride in the back of a pickup truck, always fasten my five-point harness and wear a helmet, get vaccinated for every potential sickness on the planet, don't go in the sun don't go in the water don't eat meat don't eat vegetables don't have sex don't like anyone don't get old don't speak loudly don't use nasty words don't don't don't ?

    Why don't I just fucking curl up and die, get it over with ?

    Safe can go pound sand.
    You seem to overlook it isn't "either or". How you choose to live your life is one thing but when it also affects those around you then that IMO is another matter.

    If you choose to "curl up and die" that doesn't affect my life. Your family might not agree though. Very sad if they do

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    what is under your kitchen sink is likely more dangerous and more insidious than any gun as far as kids go.

    Just sayin.


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