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  1. #21
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    Default Yes there is more here it seems.

    Remember when Apple said its forecast for profit is going to be much lower than expected? Seems their sales were going to be much lower. I suppose it may not effect the backorder you need now to rush out the door.

    Time should show us some interesting things. Likely the poor fellow struggling to get the screws out to Apple on their schedule may have just overextended a bit. He may have had the largest order of these screws with a expedidited delivery schedule. His schedule might have been he was working one shift. There are so many things that happen for real.

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    Regardless of what you think of Apple products, this was an experiment to see if they could manufacture in the USA.
    So, they picked a low volume product, and one that is the most expensive computer they sell, figuring it would cost more in the USA, but that the high end computer could more easily absorb higher costs than a cheaper one could.

    The shop that made this is a pretty modern, high tech shop, with a mix of old screw machines, modern swiss machines, and VMCs and CNC lathes. its not some garage shop.

    turns out they are a shoulder screw with a torx drive. kind of like these- Screws - VEX Robotics

    and here is the shop- Homepage - Caldwell Manufacturing
    its not a job shop- its a custom screw machine shop.

    The fact is- everything Apple builds is full of custom parts. Usually tricky custom parts.
    They dont use off the shelf fasteners for anything.
    And since this is such a low volume product, they needed small parts runs.

    Of course they could have imported these screws from China, and saved money.
    But the whole point was to try to see if they could make the product in the USA.
    And they did- they still do make this here.
    My guess is that by now, 6 years later, the screws are being made to spec.

    To me, what this article talks about is the actual real world problems of reshoring products.
    Even with the most expensive products, its not easy.

    With cheap products, its really really hard.
    I get told all the time that you could buy a product, drop shipped from China, for 1/10 my bid.

    So, how do we address this-

    do we only build the most expensive, fancy stuff here?
    (this is kind of how CAT and Deere do it- they make the cheap, run of the mill excavators and mini-loaders in China, and they make the giant, expensive, electric mining dump trucks and 400hp 8 wheel diesel tractors with GPS satellite height adjustment in the USA)

    do we go to all automated factories?

    There are definitely companies that are competitive manufacturing in the USA- and even exporting.

    BMW, for example, exports SUVS from South Carolina to China.
    Boeing exports planes from Washington to China.
    Haas exports CNCs from California to China.

    It can be done.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Regardless of what you think of Apple products, this was an experiment to see if they could manufacture in the USA.
    So, they picked a low volume product, and one that is the most expensive computer they sell, figuring it would cost more in the USA, but that the high end computer could more easily absorb higher costs than a cheaper one could.

    The shop that made this is a pretty modern, high tech shop, with a mix of old screw machines, modern swiss machines, and VMCs and CNC lathes. its not some garage shop.

    turns out they are a shoulder screw with a torx drive. kind of like these- Screws - VEX Robotics

    and here is the shop- Homepage - Caldwell Manufacturing
    its not a job shop- its a custom screw machine shop.

    The fact is- everything Apple builds is full of custom parts. Usually tricky custom parts.
    They dont use off the shelf fasteners for anything.
    And since this is such a low volume product, they needed small parts runs.

    Of course they could have imported these screws from China, and saved money.
    But the whole point was to try to see if they could make the product in the USA.
    And they did- they still do make this here.
    My guess is that by now, 6 years later, the screws are being made to spec.

    To me, what this article talks about is the actual real world problems of reshoring products.
    Even with the most expensive products, its not easy.

    With cheap products, its really really hard.
    I get told all the time that you could buy a product, drop shipped from China, for 1/10 my bid.

    So, how do we address this-

    do we only build the most expensive, fancy stuff here?
    (this is kind of how CAT and Deere do it- they make the cheap, run of the mill excavators and mini-loaders in China, and they make the giant, expensive, electric mining dump trucks and 400hp 8 wheel diesel tractors with GPS satellite height adjustment in the USA)

    do we go to all automated factories?

    There are definitely companies that are competitive manufacturing in the USA- and even exporting.

    BMW, for example, exports SUVS from South Carolina to China.
    Boeing exports planes from Washington to China.
    Haas exports CNCs from California to China.

    It can be done.
    Ries,
    It makes a lot of sense (perfect sense) that this was more of a testing the waters thing. Apple is very forward moving and what you describe is more like a solid evaluation. I liked the Texas companies website and yes they have a good site and that shows along with their equipment and mission that they are a advanced supplier.

    I have seen screw machines work and when set right they rock and roll. I think as things proceed I am sure things will adjust out. Apple here in Texas will smooth it out.

    Actually since Apple started growing here in what is named Silicon Hills many Apple employees have been a perfect many of those persons moved here from California.

    This area is a very nice place to live. Growth here has been steady and solid and continues. Lots of growth.

    Apple will always overcome and I am glad they will work this all out.

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  5. #24
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    I admit to not having gone through every post line by line, ...but it strikes me there could (that's as in might) be another side to that screw mularky.


    Namely - what are Apple like to deal with - as a supplier? ...it's been my unfortunate experience that often (and not always) the bigger the company the bigger the asshole and attitude, …………………...which is hardly the way to win folk over.

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    I bet the phone Trump uses for all his tweets is made in China. Are there any cell phones made in the USA?
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    Namely - what are Apple like to deal with - as a supplier? ...it's been my unfortunate experience that often (and not always) the bigger the company the bigger the asshole and attitude, …………………...which is hardly the way to win folk over.
    That's been my experience with Mitutoyo. Not nearly as big but Mahr IMO are even worse.

    And getting back to the OP. Hasn't any company, Texas or elsewhere in the USA said they could make those screws? Was anyone in the USA even asked?

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    I have found Apple to be very gentle and bend over backwards to their supplier side.
    Miles easier than a US auto maker.
    Problem here is that we have given up on production of such things and the equipment is long gone. Scrapped or sold off to other strange places.
    This order is nowhere big enough to buy new machines.
    So, yes we have surrendered this capability to offshore and now we want to bring it back home.
    Guess what, "they" now have capabilities we once ruled but no longer have.
    Bob

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    I bet the phone Trump uses for all his tweets is made in China. Are there any cell phones made in the USA?
    Bill
    Please limit the link to politics here. It is out of context to this discussion and basically out of the blue. If you want to spend a lot of time on the politics aspect to a extent because you feel it is needed start a OT thread

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    For those of you who prefer to shave every penny on your products, your knowledgeable customers will notice that you prefer price over quality.

    I will notice, if you aren't using top grade fasteners, will you?


    My products will only be fastened with Hollow Chrome fasteners and dowels. There are other reputable high quality US made fastener companies out there, and all are competitively priced.

    A warning to those that want to cut a corner, professionals will take notice.

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    As gently as possible, can I suggest that professionals spell Holo-Krome properly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I have found Apple to be very gentle and bend over backwards to their supplier side.
    Miles easier than a US auto maker.
    Problem here is that we have given up on production of such things and the equipment is long gone. Scrapped or sold off to other strange places.
    This order is nowhere big enough to buy new machines.
    So, yes we have surrendered this capability to offshore and now we want to bring it back home.
    Guess what, "they" now have capabilities we once ruled but no longer have.
    Bob
    Us automakers may be the worst clients on the planet.

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    i read the article in the AGE here i just googled it and there are a number of results in different places so it has spread like wildfire.

    Eventually i think apple will have to bring back or move manufacturing from china.

    For the following reasons.
    they build capability and train locals in how to build a phone which can be used to build their own phone.

    A support industry gets setup and funded for china and they get locked in to one supplier and lessons competition.

    Good old trade balance.

    There will be barriers to moving manufacturing but hopefully they have enough cash and IP left to start again before its too late on training the other competition.
    You see new other manufacture phones in the market how did they gain the knowledge to build them is a question to be asked? Could it have been apple training that did this?

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    The problem is, Dobedave retired

    Okay, more seriously - I have had the experience that a lot of companies and people in the US no longer want to bother working. "Not enough money in it" -- $2,000 for accepting a wire transfer and writing a check wasn't worth their time. Had this happen in many transactions. Few people want to do simple stuff for anything less than a 300% roi.

    Cook is something of an idiot, btw. Those legions of engineers are fruitcakes. Most of the time you have to expend large efforts to keep them from "improving" your part. And not telling you. To buy from China you need 'boots on the ground' or you'll end up sad and broke. It's not the picnic the Times presents.

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    There’s more to the manufacturing “machine” than the screw cutter.
    The entire “machine” of relationships.
    From the stock provider to the shipping guy to the QC crew are adjusted for the client I. Some cases.

    Yeah, I bet they could.d get the screws made...but that isn’t every factor in the supply chain.

    And that not even counting things like magnetics which actually aren’t made anywhere but China in any meaningful quantity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Problem here is that we have given up on production of such things and the equipment is long gone. Scrapped or sold off to other strange places.
    This order is nowhere big enough to buy new machines.
    So, yes we have surrendered this capability to offshore and now we want to bring it back home.
    Guess what, "they" now have capabilities we once ruled but no longer have.
    Bob
    Pretty much that. Friend of mine who works on electronics field said that it's just so much easier to get things done in china when 99% of the supply chain is there anyways.
    Even if he has to spend 1/3 of his time traveling to china to keep the suppliers under control..

    In here the situation might be even worse than US after the downfall of the Nokia as it was directly and indirectly pretty large player in here.

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    The main problem with this screw is quantity. If as stated earlier the screw is not slotted but has a broached drive then you have your first problem.
    Are you going to cold head 30,000 and then thread roll this amount?
    Do you have the tooling in stock? No? How long to get it? Have you got the wire in stock?
    Let's try it on a Swiss type.
    Do you have a rotary broach holder to suit the broach that you haven't got yet? Do you have a collet and guide bush? Material already in stock?
    You need to get your finger out, you only have two weeks.
    There are more problems but then,why make life easy.
    I still say how you can make any at all but only 1,000/day is a mystery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    The main problem with this screw is quantity. If as stated earlier the screw is not slotted but has a broached drive then you have your first problem.
    Are you going to cold head 30,000 and then thread roll this amount?
    Do you have the tooling in stock? No? How long to get it? Have you got the wire in stock?
    Let's try it on a Swiss type.
    Do you have a rotary broach holder to suit the broach that you haven't got yet? Do you have a collet and guide bush? Material already in stock?
    You need to get your finger out, you only have two weeks.
    There are more problems but then,why make life easy.
    I still say how you can make any at all but only 1,000/day is a mystery.

    If you're a swiss shop, yes, you probably have a rotary broach holder in stock. They also make static broaches for this kind of work. You get somebody to make you a custom or a standard and overnight it. You can also mill the hexalobe, no problem. You should have a guide bushing, main, and pickoff in stock that are close enough... If the pickoff is an odd size, you bore an existing collet, or an emergency collet. If you've got NOTHING.... You pay one of the smaller outfits to make you some, PRONTO, and you get them in a couple days, if you pay enough. The only thing that you can't get quickly is odd sized material. But let's assume for the sake of sanity that you can make them from a larger material and turn everything down. And if you have the material in stock, there's a 99% chance that you have the main and guide bushing in stock.

    So now it's just down to whether you can make a large enough quantity in your remaining 9 out of 15 days, after all your rush order tooling shows up.

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    ... and when all is said and done, is the most profitable use of your and your shop's time...

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    came across this video on CNN...
    The electronics market...a million square feet of radio shack.

    Inside China's biggest gadget market - CNN Video

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    If you're a swiss shop, yes, you probably have a rotary broach holder in stock. They also make static broaches for this kind of work. You get somebody to make you a custom or a standard and overnight it. You can also mill the hexalobe, no problem.
    Ouch. Can but..
    PENTAlobe socket in apple phones for example is 0.8mm diameter, you would need about 0.2 to 0.3mm endmill to cut it.

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