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  1. #61
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    On this subject you see many say "Of course this can be done here, Apple is wrong".
    So for all those that can or know a place that can ....Did you shoot off a e-mail to Apple helping them with your ability or knowledge?
    What was the response?
    I see lots of talking about what "could" be done, bench-racing and armchair quarterbacking but no actual doing.
    I would think the press on the subject here and more the talk inside such business would bring just about everyone who could do such out of the woodwork.

    I and Apple could care less if you think you know how such could be made. This is all theoretical and bull-poop talk.
    Can you deliver parts? If not can you say who can?
    At some point the rubber hits the road.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    If you can't see it from this video I don't know how to explain it.

    YouTube

    Making screw heads on mass production isn't done separately.
    I do not need to watch a video,I already have the T shirt.
    I know how screws are made in mass production but 30,000 is not mass production. It was suggested ( not by you) that the slot was done as a second operation,stampings, coining etc.. This WILL produce excess material which has to go somewhere. Yes,I have been heavily involved in mass production. Have you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    I do not need to watch a video,I already have the T shirt.
    I know how screws are made in mass production but 30,000 is not mass production. It was suggested ( not by you) that the slot was done as a second operation,stampings, coining etc.. This WILL produce excess material which has to go somewhere. Yes,I have been heavily involved in mass production. Have you?
    You just use a closed die and calculate the material so it forms your desired head shape. You don't just press a torx shape, you press the torx and head shape in all at once, blanks "head" is under sized and comes right once its coined to shape. Its not magic, its basic play-dough forming, we cover that in primary school over here

    IMHO 30K kinda is kinda mass production, to single point em is too slow, so you spend 10 of your 15 days tooling, you spend 2 days on setup then you run and deliver them in the remaining 3 days. Simples

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    You just use a closed die and calculate the material so it forms your desired head shape. You don't just press a torx shape, you press the torx and head shape in all at once, blanks "head" is under sized and comes right once its coined to shape. Its not magic, its basic play-dough forming, we cover that in primary school over here

    IMHO 30K kinda is kinda mass production, to single point em is too slow, so you spend 10 of your 15 days tooling, you spend 2 days on setup then you run and deliver them in the remaining 3 days. Simples
    If you are not going to single point the thread then I assume you will cut the thread on 1st op and punch the head 2nd op. If you read post 54 then we are looking for a precise nice looking screw. Your method will not produce this. The screw needs to be cold headed first and the thread to be rolled 2nd op.
    30,000 may be mass production for you but in the screw world it is a short run and on a cold header it is an extremely short run.
    That is my view on it,others may feel differently.

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlasmaOnTheBrain View Post
    The USA had all the tools it needed right after WW2 to do Literally Everything that Anyone needed to live. We raised the bar in terms of how to get things done. We were tooled up for a massive global war. We had to supply not just guns and ammo, but everything Everyone needs to survive and carry on fighting in a total global war. We made a pistol that took longer to reload than it did to frikking manufacture, and we made Millions of the things Months from the word Go. Try and do that now a days...
    Our standard of living and wealth came from all of that production ending for a war effort and then switching to non war products. Re-tooling was cheap at the time, and our standard of living as well as the economy boomed. in the 50's to 70's Tech that was just being developed/discovered or was shelved due to expense/lack of resources during the War was free to be expanded on.
    Then in the 80's we sold the country out to hedge fund sharks who gutted the industrial base to feed their coke habits.
    We sold off our industry and japan then china and now the rest of the far east has taken up the mantle...
    I'm only 34 so this is just what I've picked up on from what I've read/listened too/watched in movies...
    Cheers!
    Clif
    sorry, but this is just not true.

    The USA continued to build tools, invent processes, and manufacture increasingly complicated products, after WW2.
    The Heavy Press Program, for example, started in 1950, and the government continued to pay to build the largest hydraulic presses in the world thru 1957. Several of those presses are still in use today, and pretty much every current military aircraft has parts made on one. They were not sold off or gutted.
    Similarly, the evolution of CNC machine tools from a theory to operating tools was largely paid for by the US military and space programs in the sixties- cost plus contracts paid for the perfection of tape reader NC, then full on CNC- even if some of the tools came from Japan, the money to pay for them, and the products made (mostly aerospace) were US.

    or, the perfection of the waterjet- largely for titanium, initially for the SR41-Blackbird and similar titanium planes. Previously, waterjet was used commercially to cut cardboard. The government paid to make the process industrially practical for metals, glass, stone, and carbon fiber.

    maybe the internet, gps, and satellite communication are things you use, without thinking of, daily-
    all are much more complicated than running a screw machine to make 1940s small arms.
    we make more complicated, sophisticated stuff every day now, than we ever did in the 40s.

    And, remember- its a fact that, today, we have the industrial capacity in the USA to make more tons of steel than we did during WW2. Peak production during the war was around 80 million tons. 2018 production was 95 million tons in the USA.
    We make as much, if not more, small arms ammunition today as at the peak of the war.

    What we dont do is have rows of 100 bridgeports slowly cranking out parts. A lot of the equipment for WW 2 was simple, and made laboriously on basic manual machine tools. So it LOOKED like a lot of work. But its far harder to make fewer, much more sophisticated jet fighters or nuclear aircraft carriers, than to make 1000s of propellor driven planes which, mostly had a lifespan before rebuild measured in months.

    A 5 man CNC shop can make more parts, to a much higher standard, in much tougher to machine alloys, today, than a 500 man shop in 1944 could.
    My dad worked at the Gary IN USS mill in the early 50s- 40,000 employees. The same mill, today, makes significantly more, higher quality steel, with around 10% of the employees.

    The problem is not the tools- the problem is- do we really need it, and how much are we really willing to pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    Yes,I have been heavily involved in mass production. Have you?
    Yes I have

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    Default Is it true we can't make a screw at a competitive price?


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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    If you are not going to single point the thread then I assume you will cut the thread on 1st op and punch the head 2nd op. If you read post 54 then we are looking for a precise nice looking screw. Your method will not produce this. The screw needs to be cold headed first and the thread to be rolled 2nd op.
    30,000 may be mass production for you but in the screw world it is a short run and on a cold header it is an extremely short run.
    That is my view on it,others may feel differently.
    30,000 may be mass production for you but in the screw world it is a short run and on a cold header it is an extremely short run.

    Same over here, IIRC coldformers don't want to make dies, and set them up for under 1m parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    On this subject you see many say "Of course this can be done here, Apple is wrong".
    So for all those that can or know a place that can ....Did you shoot off a e-mail to Apple helping them with your ability or knowledge?
    What was the response?
    I see lots of talking about what "could" be done, bench-racing and armchair quarterbacking but no actual doing.
    I would think the press on the subject here and more the talk inside such business would bring just about everyone who could do such out of the woodwork.

    I and Apple could care less if you think you know how such could be made. This is all theoretical and bull-poop talk.
    Can you deliver parts? If not can you say who can?
    At some point the rubber hits the road.
    Bob
    It is Apples problem. US Manufacturing is not to blame I do not think, it is a big country. It will be ok once they find a good source for the screws. It takes time.
    Last edited by Spinit; 02-28-2019 at 05:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    30,000 may be mass production for you but in the screw world it is a short run and on a cold header it is an extremely short run.

    Same over here, IIRC coldformers don't want to make dies, and set them up for under 1m parts.

    Manufacturing company i use to work for put over a million parts a day (24 hours) which included about a dozen cold formers. This was a threaded part that went through a reed threader as well. I have seen 1.5 million in a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    30,000 may be mass production for you but in the screw world it is a short run and on a cold header it is an extremely short run.

    Same over here, IIRC coldformers don't want to make dies, and set them up for under 1m parts.
    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodge View Post
    Manufacturing company i use to work for put over a million parts a day (24 hours) which included about a dozen cold formers. This was a threaded part that went through a reed threader as well. I have seen 1.5 million in a day.
    Good to hear some feedback from "Them That's doing".
    What was the minimum order that included making new dies ?
    As opposed to a repeat order that just requires setting the dies ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Yes I have
    Care to enlighten me? I did say heavily involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Good to hear some feedback from "Them That's doing".
    What was the minimum order that included making new dies ?
    As opposed to a repeat order that just requires setting the dies ?
    I bet there are people in China that will build those dies for 1/10 what a USA supplier would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Good to hear some feedback from "Them That's doing".
    What was the minimum order that included making new dies ?
    As opposed to a repeat order that just requires setting the dies ?
    It was a well established product/business that had been around for years. Usually just family change overs. Automotive supplier. Occasionally we would get a call for a new design but a given it would be a long running part number if it went from prototype to a regular part number.

    In all fairness i haven't worked there for quite some time and a large majority has been outsourced to Mexico. The stateside facility is still in business but just a shadow of what it once was. Several changes in ownership over the years.

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    I asked this a while ago and if anyone answered I missed it so I'll ask again.

    To be a supplier to companies like Apple don't you have to be on some kind of "approved supplier list"? I cant imagine any Tom, Dick or Harry can just make an offer.

    I'm an "approved" supplier to a couple of "the big 'uns" and there are (IMO) some weird questions asked but also answered on my part.

    One customer had me declare I didn't use slaves! Makes me wonder who some of their suppliers are

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    Nah.
    No.
    Yes.
    It depends.

    If apple needs 30k screws in 15 days, anyone can bid for it, if apple approaches them or they hear of the job.
    The supplier simply needs to be credible.

    Credible is e.g. sending a photo or sample of a high quality screw they made once.

    "Approved vendors" is for large orders and ongoing stuff.
    Ime Nokia, IBM, Hilton, Sony are quite happy to buy anything from anyone.

    The vendor suppliers credentials and guarantees and makes stuff to specs.
    Mostly a guarantee is a promise to do well.
    All big corps know that oecd small shops would never stiff them - since they won´t get paid if the stuff is not to spec.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I asked this a while ago and if anyone answered I missed it so I'll ask again.

    To be a supplier to companies like Apple don't you have to be on some kind of "approved supplier list"? I cant imagine any Tom, Dick or Harry can just make an offer.

    I'm an "approved" supplier to a couple of "the big 'uns" and there are (IMO) some weird questions asked but also answered on my part.

    One customer had me declare I didn't use slaves! Makes me wonder who some of their suppliers are

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    Gordon you are in Europe, and you know full well that some of your large customers, or other companies from the same nations, have been accused of using slave labor during WWII and I suppose other such awful events. Any such thing still going on now? One would like to think not, at least in the 1st word. Some long and bitter history? You bet.

    Apple in particular (and the whole tech industry) has faced questions over minerals extracted in "blood mining" in various bits of Africa. And labor that isn't literal slavery but looked awfully similar (at least to activists and the press) has caused grief for tech companies (including Apple) and for Nike....

    So the question isnt' quite as weird as it may seem.

    There are some similar things in the US that are forced by law, and get asked in silly circumstances, but by law must be asked....

    To point - I think Hanermo nailed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Gordon you are in Europe, and you know full well that some of your large customers, or other companies from the same nations, have been accused of using slave labor during WWII and I suppose other such awful events. Any such thing still going on now? One would like to think not, at least in the 1st word. Some long and bitter history? You bet.
    Bryan, you are in the USA. You had a civil war on slavery.

    I was asked this in 2018 by a UK company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    "Approved vendors" is for large orders and ongoing stuff.
    Ime Nokia, IBM, Hilton, Sony are quite happy to buy anything from anyone.
    Not in my case. It wasn't a large order and so far not ongoing. Who knows, maybe.

    I am though now "an approved vendor".


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