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  1. #1
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    Default Union vs non union shops...

    I've only ever worked non union jobs, just wondering what the forum thinks on either side...

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    I started out in a Union shop
    Unless you are a lazy, shiftless, useless piece of shit who want's to get paid top dollar for doing nothing, there is nothing good about it.

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    I have never had a union job so I can't say, but I don't see how an adversarial relationship with your employer could ever benefit anyone.

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    This will go down hill fast...

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    You have to remember the reason for unions. When management is mistreating its workers, then the workers react by forming or joining unions. A union not a godsend, it costs money to be a member and a number restrictions are placed on the member as well as management.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    You have to remember the reason for unions. When management is mistreating its workers, then the workers react by forming or joining unions.
    Alternatively, the ones with brains, ambition and foresight quit and go elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    You have to remember the reason for unions. When management is mistreating its workers, then the workers react by forming or joining unions. A union not a godsend, it costs money to be a member and a number restrictions are placed on the member as well as management.

    Tom
    I'm sure there are companies that mistreat workers and that is a good reason for unions.

    I think a more common reason would simply how big a company is. If you, as a worker, are just a number, then THAT is probably a better reason for union representation.

    I've always avoided large companies for this very reason. I prefer to work for companies where I know the owners/management team personally. If that's not an option, then I don't accept their offer.

    I'm very lucky in that I've always been in a position to react like that. I'm sure there are folks that can't do that, and I feel for them.

    I would rather my work, contributions, and record speak for me when it comes time for a review/raise.

    Your mileage may vary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    I'm sure there are companies that mistreat workers and that is a good reason for unions.

    I think a more common reason would simply how big a company is. If you, as a worker, are just a number, then THAT is probably a better reason for union representation.

    I've always avoided large companies for this very reason. I prefer to work for companies where I know the owners/management team personally. If that's not an option, then I don't accept their offer.

    I'm very lucky in that I've always been in a position to react like that. I'm sure there are folks that can't do that, and I feel for them.

    I would rather my work, contributions, and record speak for me when it comes time for a review/raise.

    Your mileage may vary.
    If you never worked for a large company you are missing out. That is a lot of work place politics, nepotism, and the latest management fads you will never get to experience.

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    As for the original question I have only had co workers that came from union shops, and friends that belonged to unions in other lines of work. My take is they are a hindrance to productivity and personal growth. Probably a positive if you are a lifer at the place you are at.

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    One thing about a large union shop is that the rules are well defined as is the procedure to complain.
    This helps with buddies, favoritism or all kinds of things.
    "I want a committee call"... other... "You are being written up". That is this world but the rules are the rules and everyone knows, the goal post does not move.

    One big downside is the us vs them mentality in most all which is not productive.
    Both union and non-union shops have good and bad workers and good and bad managers.
    Sometimes in a big union shop you think "The inmates are running the asylum". Other times one thinks that if the mangers worked with the employees things would be better.

    Things in a UAW shop are much different now than in the 60's,70's and 80's so many here maybe reflecting old times.
    Having worked both sides in both environments not sure which I favor.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    This will go down hill fast...
    Cannot.

    Started at the bottom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Alternatively, the ones with brains, ambition and foresight quit and go elsewhere.
    ...as do those who come in later. Even a hundred-plus years later.

    So the Union Shop contributes to society long after the original motivation for it has passed.

    "Sorting". Like a sediment catchment basin. Or mayhap a grease trap?

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    Union or Non-Union--Too many different jobs with differing requirements.
    --Auto manufacturing for example--Would say yeah you need union representation but that probably has changed since most all auto mfg transplant in Southern states are non-union and the workers appear fine with that.

    --Certain occupations with great liability exposure and Gov't oversight like Pilots, Aviation trades, Police and such benefit from strong union representation which almost always includes strong legal defense.

    --Trades like IBEW, Heavy equipment operators, HVAC and such generally have unions which are part of training and education that usually has a defined skill set level. Another words the union card should provide some guarantee of expertise.

    --Lost of union representation might be more of an advantage to the union (dues) than the workers. Worked in a facility that was represented by AFSME and the union itself was worse to deal with than the employer.

    Lots of different moving parts. Myself...rather be a fee agent and rely on my own work ethic and be able to negotiate a bit with the employer.

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    I worked for 25 years in a union manufacturing environment. I'm and engineer by training and worked as one in this environment. It was a pharma plant and the plant workers union was originally the oil and chemical workers but they were absorbed into the united steel workers union. I didn't really see where the union really added value in any way.

    I also worked a lot with union contractors. We weren't required to hire union contractors but we found that the only really skilled labor was with union contractors. These guys were pretty much always very professional and very good to work with. I came to the conclusion that because of the apprenticeship program that the electricians, pipe fitters, and sheet metal workers had, which was part of the union that there was a real added value there. It seems to me that if a machinists union would have a similar independent apprenticeship program it would be pretty valuable. Maybe there is such a thing?

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    It seems to me that if a machinists union would have a similar independent apprenticeship program it would be pretty valuable. Maybe there is such a thing?
    My Journeyman's card was issued by the state of Ohio. Not a union. I also have a certificate from the NTMA. Not sure what it represents, but the state issued one is the card I present if asked.

    As far as I know, Unions may facilitate the process, but are powerless to actually issue any certificates of completion that mean anything legally.

    That said, there are many different kinds of "unions". I'm aware of unions like the bricklayer's union and the laborer's union and others like these. They are more a clearing house for their rank and file to find jobs or projects and issue the workers when the employers ask for them.
    As far as I'm concerned, these types of unions are very different than the IBEW or the teamsters.

    The only machinist union that I'm aware of is strongly affiliated to the aircraft industry.

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    The construction unions here are run by outlaw bikers as one of their many criminal enterprises.

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    I started in my trade ( electrician) in the IBEW. The union made sure my training was broad and covered most of the skills in the trade. I went to apprenticeship school and completed my apprenticeship on time with all my schooling. I have a “Red Seal” journeyman card issued by the Provence that is recognized across Canada. I continued my employment in the public sector as an industrial electrician and now collect 2 pensions. Some people work and make/save money for the employer and some don’t.
    The union has been good for my family. I was paid a good wage, had great benefits, and have a really good pension. I did have to put up with a few unmotivated people but overall, my work spoke for it self and my reward was extra hours (= more time off) and more interesting jobs.
    Cam

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    The construction unions here are run by outlaw bikers as one of their many criminal enterprises.
    Really? That is something. Unions here were said to be tied in with organized crime. Many have said it was necessary because large employers sent out paid agitators to beat and kill employees who banded together asking for safer and better working conditions and better pay. They basically hired thugs to counter the actions against them by their employer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    Maybe there is such a thing?
    No there isn't. The IAM was only about 5% machinists. They also covered janitors, secretary's, assemblers, etc. Raking in dues was the one and only thing they gave a rats ass about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    No there isn't. The IAM was only about 5% machinists. They also covered janitors, secretary's, assemblers, etc. Raking in dues was the one and only thing they gave a rats ass about.
    Yeah, that pretty much sums up the IAM.

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