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Does the following type of electric forklift exist (or ever existed ?) ......

Milacron

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Staff member
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
Small 1,000 to 3000 lb capacity 4 wheel sit down electric forklift that

1. Has its own iron counterweight so that 4 (normal golf cart/scissor lift type) deep cycle 6 volt batteries can be used (i.e. not relying on huge expensive battery for counterweight)

2. Has scissor lift type plug in remote control (wireless ?) so that one person could via "safety platform" (forks thru fork pockets of platform) position said platform (i.e the forklift) vertically and horizontally where they need to be without assistance.

Number 2 would require the forklift having "fly by wire" hydraulics of course. An “order picker” lift has some of the desired features but there is still that pesky battery issue plus they are problematic traversing less than perfect floors.

What I'm getting at is combination forklift and scissor lift / man lift that runs on golf cart batteries. I think this would sell like hotcakes if the price was under $20,000....but alas it probably wouldn't in which case most companies would just buy a scissor lift ($10,000 for small one) and a small forklift ($22,000 + $5,000 battery ! ).... but I can dream, yes ?
 
Buy a small electric lift, convert the battery pack to gulf cart battery's and build a man basket, keep in mind to add counter weight as the battery pack is the counter weight...Phil
 
My understanding is that not only OSHA but also insurance companies, and to a large degree forklift builders, have already decided that this is a very bad idea. (Not the golf cart batteries part.)

I have a friend who worked for one of the lift vendors, and the extended lift machines (not scissors but things that stick out like cranes) require mind warping levels of testing and have to comply with standards derived from various real world rules written in blood - like they have to be stable over a 4" drop - because that means for most curbs in the US if you run one or two wheels off the curb it won't kill you.

Striking power lines is the leading cause of casuality.

Keep in mind that most modern forklifts will refuse to do squat unless somebody is sitting in the seat.... I don't know if that's a regulation, an insurance issue, or a litigation issue, but the whole "remote control" thing apparently gives them all bad rash.

There was a time I would have been tempted to buy the machine you describe, but for my needs a used scissor lift will be better - because it is what the sprinkler, plumbing, electrical, and HVAC people are used too, feel safe with, won't balk at. That would be a thing that would impede it in a lot of places.

NOW - a scissor lift that is about 1/2 as long as normal, but didn't cost a fortune or weave about like a fishing pole would be appealing, but that doesn't seem to exist either.

[Footnote - My marriottti is quite small, but still uses a quite pricey battery - but so what? The real issue is no practical remote control....]
 
... but I can dream, yes ?

"Dream" is simply to not operate in the USA. At all.

Litigation is EXACTLY what it is.

That drives inch-hoorance. Both drive regulations. Insert nose in tail, spin at high velocity.

That was why Baker-Mac tapped me to train each newbie out of the UK they seconded once a year.

Three page contract by the exhange UK Soliciter - TOP marks or wuddna been selected for the exchange training to begin with - was referred to me by Director for North America. Came back to her a high multiple of the page count with all the extra CYA, venue, and dispute resolution "boilerplate" clauses we dare not omit.

Soliciter pitched a fit, copied London HQ, Hacker ain't even a Lawyer!

No, but he had got it exactly right for North America. And they would know, given Baker-Mac is actually a Chicago HQ'ed outfit..

So it became a requirement each newbie. Until I hired a seasoned, full-time Contracts Specialist for North America.

Y'see.. the USA was at 9 times more litigeous a society than # 2 (Japan in that era). US was 12 times more likely to litigate than the UK.

Your $20,000 machine's cost has to stand a TON of first-round rollout reserve. No point in even doing the math "per unit", yet. The firm has a serious nut to crack.

The good news is the per-unit cost drops to a lot less at around the ten-thousandth sold ... with no significant lawsuits. Yet.

Not a situation as can be changed. Nor casually ignored.

And there you have it. Barrier to entry. Legal & Financial. Not technical nor marketing.

Spreading the cost of risk = big begats bigger.

And why "Raymond" dare to offer all manner of clever MHE.

And we just as clever chikn's are frustrated that we dare not stand-up the openers for the game.

The Raymond Corporation, a Toyota Industries Corp. company,

Toyota Industries - Wikipedia
 
I would think it would be a regulation nigh mare to design and have a piece of equipment that was both material handling and and a personnel lift.

Not really.

There are stock/order pickers where you ride up with the forks. They even have
a tie off overhead for your harness, and you drive it while up there.

I have scrapped out (2) of them, made by Crown.
 
Not really.

There are stock/order pickers where you ride up with the forks. They even have
a tie off overhead for your harness, and you drive it while up there.

I have scrapped out (2) of them, made by Crown.

I didn't say it couldn't be done, only that it would be a nigh mare. Look up the regulations on using a man basket from a crane, it's insane, 10K minimum at all times, dry run with dead weights blah blah blah. It's amazing anything gets done anymore
 
I didn't say it couldn't be done, only that it would be a nigh mare. Look up the regulations on using a man basket from a crane, it's insane, 10K minimum at all times, dry run with dead weights blah blah blah. It's amazing anything gets done anymore

These are commercially produced machines, by the Crown forklift company, not so rare, nor obscure.
Order Picker Forklifts | SP | Crown Equipment
 
These are commercially produced machines, by the Crown forklift company, not so rare, nor obscure.
Order Picker Forklifts | SP | Crown Equipment

Yes, and on the same liability costs spread over a broad count of goods on the side of the "Big Battalions" theme as Raymond being part of Toyoda?

Crown isn't "small potatoes", either, 84 countries, "many" factories.

Look 'em up. Their website:

About Crown | Company Overview | Crown Equipment

Also Wiki. Then Bloomberg et al.

I say again; The "barriers to entry", US market, RECENT and STILL-YET (Trump ain't a MAGICIAN, after all.), are USUALLY more legal, regulatory, ultimately financial than they are technical, managerial, or sales & marketing driven.

It would be NICE if it weren't so - "Magicians" or otherwise - but it is not an ocean to be boilt any time SOON.
 
Yes, and on the same liability costs spread over a broad count of goods on the side of the "Big Battalions" theme as Raymond being part of Toyoda?

Crown isn't "small potatoes", either, 84 countries, "many" factories.

Look 'em up. Their website:

About Crown | Company Overview | Crown Equipment

Also Wiki. Then Bloomberg et al.

I say again; The "barriers to entry", US market, RECENT and STILL-YET (Trump ain't a MAGICIAN, after all.), are USUALLY more legal, regulatory, ultimately financial than they are technical, managerial, or sales & marketing driven.

It would be NICE if it weren't so - "Magicians" or otherwise - but it is not an ocean to be boilt any time SOON.

So what Milacron should doo (and has done in the past) is make a prototype,
get it running good, optimized etc.

And then sell the patent/concept/design to one of the aforementioned.
 
So what Milacron should doo (and has done in the past) is make a prototype,
get it running good, optimized etc.

And then sell the patent/concept/design to one of the aforementioned.

That's how a great many things got their start, yes.

Problem is.. in an ALREADY highly litigeous society, those with "Nazgul" grade lawsters on decades-long retainer are more inclined to just TAKE the idea and run with it- confident that their Lawsters can bankrupt you over a long period of years even if they are dead wrong and you are solidly in the right.

Intermittent windshield wipers a case in point. And that is NOT even "recent".

Lesser-known was the year W.Bell & Co. published their jewelry and gift catalog with a cover in black, riband across.Straight line, no curve, dead-level, that was yellow in one side, lavender on the other, and had a twist, center page, that showed off the curves of the twist, and reversed the two colors. Simple, elegant, the high-line jewelry did the rest. Black. Yellow. Lavender. No free-form curve.

Coca-Cola Co's Nazgul pounced.

Wanted all catalogs recalled and destroyed. Claimed the twist and curve violated their IP for the swoopy white on read curves of a Cola can. Didn't REMOTELY resemble each other, nor was there any sort of product overlap.

They picked, quite literally, the "wrong Jew".

Eastern European extraction by way of New York. "Bell" wasn't the original name.

Walter paid the vending machine company for the coke machines at his HQ, Rockville, MD. Didn't TELL them WHY.

Now he, not they, owned them.

Had the advertising staff arm-up with the best full motion cameras we sold. Betamax, IIRC.

Invited the local newspapers to a "scoop" on a newsworthy event.

Had the Gorilla Krew come down out of the heavy goods warehouse, drag the machines into a cordoned-off section of carpark, and tag-team sledghammer the f**kers to broken glass, wet carpark, and tinfoil, laughing and swearing the whole while!

Next shot, New machines going in. PEPSI COLA!

Sent the video off to the Chairman of Coca Cola. With the newspaper coverage.

Told him there were seventeen stores to go, each would stage for maximum newspaper and televison coverage, one every week.

W.Bell & Co. was most GRATEFUL for the expanded "free advertising!"

"YOUR MOVE!"

And Coke TRIPPED ALL OVER THEMSELVES to apologize. No. Our catalog never did resemble a Cola can in any way!

More to it than brass balls. Yah have to have a PLAN.. with a winning strategy!

I thought they had broken the mold when they made guys like Walter Bell.

And then .... along came another in-your-FACE!!! ... take-no-prisoners New Yorker.

And I shall be pleased to add my vote for a second term.

And also buy a better grade of popcorn and put by more Innis & Gunn "Blood Red Sky" for the chikn' liver BBQ and weenie roast!
 
I have an old CAT electric stand up forklift (model NRR 40, I think). It has a remote option built in. You have to drive it to where you want it, then turn the key switch to remote. Then you can use buttons on the mast to operate the up and down functions. You can't drive it around. I built a work basket for it and it's really handy around the hangar. It goes up to 20 feet, so it's better for getting on to the roof than a ladder.

The problem with an order picker is that the overhead protection cage makes it not useful for working on things above you.




Sent from my Nokia 7.1 using Tapatalk
 
That's how a great many things got their start, yes.

Problem is.. in an ALREADY highly litigeous society, those with "Nazgul" grade lawsters on decades-long retainer are more inclined to just TAKE the idea and run with it- confident that their Lawsters can bankrupt you over a long period of years even if they are dead wrong and you are solidly in the right.

Intermittent windshield wipers a case in point. And that is NOT even "recent".

Lesser-known was the year W.Bell & Co. published their jewelry and gift catalog with a cover in black, riband across.Straight line, no curve, dead-level, that was yellow in one side, lavender on the other, and had a twist, center page, that showed off the curves of the twist, and reversed the two colors. Simple, elegant, the high-line jewelry did the rest. Black. Yellow. Lavender. No free-form curve.

Coca-Cola Co's Nazgul pounced.

Wanted all catalogs recalled and destroyed. Claimed the twist and curve violated their IP for the swoopy white on read curves of a Cola can. Didn't REMOTELY resemble each other, nor was there any sort of product overlap.

They picked, quite literally, the "wrong Jew".

Eastern European extraction by way of New York. "Bell" wasn't the original name.

Walter paid the vending machine company for the coke machines at his HQ, Rockville, MD. Didn't TELL them WHY.

Now he, not they, owned them.

Had the advertising staff arm-up with the best full motion cameras we sold. Betamax, IIRC.

Invited the local newspapers to a "scoop" on a newsworthy event.

Had the Gorilla Krew come down out of the heavy goods warehouse, drag the machines into a cordoned-off section of carpark, and tag-team sledghammer the f**kers to broken glass, wet carpark, and tinfoil, laughing and swearing the whole while!

Next shot, New machines going in. PEPSI COLA!

Sent the video off to the Chairman of Coca Cola. With the newspaper coverage.

Told him there were seventeen stores to go, each would stage for maximum newspaper and televison coverage, one every week.

W.Bell & Co. was most GRATEFUL for the expanded "free advertising!"

"YOUR MOVE!"

And Coke TRIPPED ALL OVER THEMSELVES to apologize. No. Our catalog never did resemble a Cola can in any way!

More to it than brass balls. Yah have to have a PLAN.. with a winning strategy!

I thought they had broken the mold when they made guys like Walter Bell.

And then .... along came another in-your-FACE!!! ... take-no-prisoners New Yorker.

And I shall be pleased to add my vote for a second term.

And also buy a better grade of popcorn and put by more Innis & Gunn "Blood Red Sky" for the chikn' liver BBQ and weenie roast!

Ya know....even with all the lawyers and lawsuits, new products come out all the time....Yup, life does move on.
 
Ya know....even with all the lawyers and lawsuits, new products come out all the time....Yup, life does move on.
Yes, and either directly from larger firms or BOUGHT UP by them if they seem promising.

You'd have to see how much easier - or HARDER - it is elsewhere to appreciate the COST difference of higher-probability of litigation as a barrier, though.

One of the reasons "small business" has become so important is that so many of the new entrants are novated by folks who literally have nothing to lose!

No sooner do you have significant assets, however, and the Nazgul see "deep(er)" pockets actually WORTH a lawsuit. Perversely, that is a form of penalizing success!

This makes it harder for our more mature and experienced contributors to take the risks they COULD and DID take at earlier stages in their lives. Too late in life to want to risk having to struggle to rebuild from zilch if knocked down to impoverished or buried in debt.

Which limiting of action reduces the quality overall that the consumers have to choose from.

Lather, roll in it, repeat. We sue too often and we sue for too much.

- ANYONE can bitch about that.

- NO one can change it,

....least of all quickly and deeply by enough to be assured a meaningful difference has been put into place. Then proven safe.
 
Yes, and either directly from larger firms or BOUGHT UP by them if they seem promising.

You'd have to see how much easier - or HARDER - it is elsewhere to appreciate the COST difference of higher-probability of litigation as a barrier, though.

One of the reasons "small business" has become so important is that so many of the new entrants are novated by folks who literally have nothing to lose!

No sooner do you have significant assets, however, and the Nazgul see "deep(er)" pockets actually WORTH a lawsuit. Perversely, that is a form of penalizing success!

This makes it harder for our more mature and experienced contributors to take the risks they COULD and DID take at earlier stages in their lives. Too late in life to want to risk having to struggle to rebuild from zilch if knocked down to impoverished or buried in debt.

Which limiting of action reduces the quality overall that the consumers have to choose from.

Lather, roll in it, repeat. We sue too often and we sue for too much.

- ANYONE can bitch about that.

- NO one can change it,

....least of all quickly and deeply by enough to be assured a meaningful difference has been put into place. Then proven safe.

Understand completely, but what part of "Design, Prototype & sell design"
Would cause trouble ?

Large corporation takes over design, along with it all liability.

As Milacron would have never made a few copies for sale (just the prototype
units for show & tell) and the "Big Corp" get's everything in the deal,
where does the liability stand, and with whom ?

But then you also have the Shell company LLC game to play as well.

Does Milacron still have to defend against dovetail router fixture lawsuits ?
 
Understand completely, but what part of "Design, Prototype & sell design"
Would cause trouble ?

Large corporation takes over design, along with it all liability.
Common misconception. As an "M&A guy" all but TWO of the many firms I have been associated with, that is one thing we do NOT do!

The most common form is that we acquire the ASSETS. Only. Which include use of the name. And product IP.

"In theory" that breaks the chain - leaving the now (usually) empty of anything but cash or stock shell of the former entity on its own to defend any "old business" lawsuits.

In practice? Courts WILL "now and then" bridge that deliberate firebreak and hold the NEW entity accountable. But it is hard work, and expensive to get that done.

"The wise" do two more things;

- See to it that at least the first step in a transfer goes NOT into the deep-pocket parent corp. It goes instead into a NEW Corp with another firebreak, and limited assets.

- See to it that a professional assesment is made, R&D and testing resources the prior firm did not apply - or never HAD to be applied even had they known it was a good idea and WANTED to do - are utilized to see to it that any risky flaws are CORRECTED. Among other things, that puts "good faith" into the record.

Sometimes it is not worth it. The product is bought. And retired from the market. Too risky. Or not ENOUGH better than an exsting product to chase small gains. Not "conspiracy to bury better goods". Simple economics. MOST products actually have very slender net-net margins.

Only some years later - if even EVER - will the new acquisition be folded-into the parent- no longer a risk.

If I recall the dates, I folded Carterphone into Cable & Wireless North America around late 1985 - no later than March of 1986? It was already OLD as a C&W property, had lost any relevance, so was basically dispersed into other operations of one of our larger North American entities. AND NOT directly into the US holding company, let alone C&W Plc, London. Took Lauren and I all of thirty minutes to do the do. Day Job. Just one more day.

My call to divest Esterline of Titmus Optical, some years earlier was the reverse. There was not enough meat on the bones of the entire US MADE US eyeglass market to cover the investment we would have had to make to even improve our CHANCES at gaining a larger slice of the market. Not enough people gave a damn if their eyeglasses were made in the US or some other place. Titmus was not the only US maker even if they had cared.

As Milacron would have never made a few copies for sale (just the prototype
units for show & tell) and the "Big Corp" get's everything in the deal,
where does the liability stand, and with whom ?
Absent existing customers, jigs, fixtures, stock, production facilities, and a proven market already in-place?

Nothing special. It just goes into their own R&D coffee mill for extraction of whatever is useful. Basically gets a do-over, treated thereafter like any other new product they had done on their own.

But then you also have the Shell company LLC game to play as well.
It's a profession, and for serious experts, not a "game".

One of my HKG clients novated about 3,000 entities every year. They had SEVERAL national governments - largest on-planet to tiny islands - to keep happy that it was all being done by the rules .. and NOT to help criminals.

PRC even "furnished" them with whom they wanted to be the Beijing Office Manager. Turned out to be a truly brilliant person, too. She would be. Came VERY highly regarded in her previous job.

Design Engineer and sub-Project Manager.

Long March rocket!


Chartered Accountant sez:

"We like to say corporate novation and Secretarial services are not exactly "rocket science'. But there you have it!"

What gets into the news?

The f**k-ups.

Those who thought they could beat the big governments and their armies of investigators. Annnnnd.. competitors and the screwed, pissed-off disgruntled who will rat-out anybody as can BE ratted-out! Oy! There are a LOT of those around!

Thinking you can beat that combination - rats as well as bureaucrats - is simply daft!

Long-term, they WILL have your ass... as a substitute for a snakeskin hatband. Working WITH "Commercial Crimes" folks, HKG Police, and now and then their counterparts, PRC Gov, to catch the wrongdoers was all part of the job.

Nothing "political" about that. Cops is cops the world over.


Does Milacron still have to defend against dovetail router fixture lawsuits ?

Not if he was as wise "back in the day' as he seemed to be when I met him, no..

Classical "competent man" He knows more than just the one thing!

:D

And/or/else his lawsters (or mine) would prevail.
 
Wow qty (5) seperate post's from Bill shooting down any & all creativity on this machine, because of lawyers.

Please give it a break man, and let some constructive postings eh ?
 
Wow qty (5) seperate post's from Bill shooting down any & all creativity on this machine, because of lawyers.

Please give it a break man, and let some constructive postings eh ?

Not the least damned thing to DO with "creativity".

NO ONE needs MY "permission" to be as daring as they care to be.

Anyone actually CARES can put a thousand posts in between every one of mine.

Not all hands are "unaware" of risk . nor have a major deep-pocket Big Corp handling all that beyond their ken as the Day Job of OTHERS..

MANY on PM know "too much" about liability risk environments. Some of them learned it the hard and expensive way.

"People Moving"... be it escalator, passenger elevators, or MHE .. simply has a higher barrier to entry than a LOT of other enterprises.

That's no accident. Or at least that's the GOAL!

:D
 








 
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