Forklift pump rebuild.. Vickers Vane pump. Questions..

I'm thinking I need a pump rebuild...

Background info.. Its a big bastard.. On an old 15k lb clark.. From what I can gather the 20k and the 25k where
the same forklift, but with a bigger counterweight (and lots of steering problems). The main cylinder is
about 11 foot plus long and 8" in diameter, single stage.

From what I can gather from the part # its rated 20GPM and 4000psi..
Kind of hard to match it all up, it was obsoleted in the 70's..

I think I already know the road I'm going down with this thing, I mainly want to verify that I'm not getting
screwed and I'm making the right decision..

I don't feel like messing with it, I don't want to screw it up, and I just want it to work, and work correctly
for another 65 years.

So I'm going to send it out....

Is this a wise choice????
Any preferred place to send them?
Does anybody have an experience having a similar size pump rebuilt..

Should I get the valve body rebuild at the same time??? Its just up, down(gravity) and tilt. I know it bleeds
on both sides... I didn't get a quote on this since I just thought of it... Ball park on this? or is this
something I can tackle with out fear of messing it up???

I already got a quote on the pump.. I think its from a place that knows what the hell they are doing, and the
price actually came in right at my "I hope its only $XXXXXXX" price and a fair bit below my "put it off" price...

I'll tell y'all the quote I got and from where, but I want to at least get a few opinions and random internet
guesses first..

Thanx in advance for any and all info/opinions/guesses.. This is new territory for me.

If you have an 8" piston I think you slipped an extra zero in the pressure.

gbent said:

If you have an 8" piston I think you slipped an extra zero in the pressure.

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I very well could have.. I couldn't find documentation to line up with this part # series, so I was just kind
of guessing based on what all the BS meant in other part #s.. And it seems like it was different for every
series of pump they made, but some of it was similar.

Doing the math right quick, 4000psi in a 7" bore would lift 153,938 lbs... Almost exactly a zero off... I'm guessing
on the bore size, I have no idea what the wall thickness is on the cylinder.

Bobw said:

I very well could have.. I couldn't find documentation to line up with this part # series, so I was just kind
of guessing based on what all the BS meant in other part #s.. And it seems like it was different for every
series of pump they made, but some of it was similar.

Doing the math right quick, 4000psi in a 7" bore would lift 153,938 lbs... Almost exactly a zero off... I'm guessing
on the bore size, I have no idea what the wall thickness is on the cylinder.

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On your calculations, you have to remember if the forklift has chains on the cylinder, it cuts the lift capacity in half. Your 7" piston will only lift 76,969 lbs on the forks, which is still way more than needed for a 15K lift.

Most I've ever seen in a forklift is 3,000 psi max. I'm not saying it isn't 4,000 psi but that would be highly unusual.

As far as rebuilding a Vickers vane pump, they are of really simple construction. That being said, you can get into a lot of money on these old pumps, due to them being so old and parts availability.

FYI

Many times, but not all the time, the most common problem is wear in the end plates. Some of the time (90%) a guy can re-face the end plates flat and improve pump performance vastly for little real time or money invested.
But you already said you don't want to fuck with it.

Nobody wants to take a guess on the rebuild price???

My "put it off until later" # was $1200, My "I hope its around" # was $800.... These #'s were just made up in my
head, and the only thing I had to go off of was how much new hydraulic pumps cost..

From these guys... http://www.proactivefluidpower.com/hydraulic_pump_repair.htm

$857 or something like that $859?, which includes return shipping (and this pump is not small or light).. So right at my hopeful $800 mark...

Now to get the thing out... Its pretty easy except for the GIANT feed line coming from the tank..

I think you will be closer to $2500.00 with shipping. A Vickers kit will be close to $800.00 with the shaft and bearings. Add in the labor, runoff time and freight and you will at almost $2500.

There are a lot of non-Vickers kits and parts available that can reduce the cost somewhat but some of the Chines kits have dubious quality.

One problem that is going to skew the rebuild price is that any reputable rebuilder will be going to the effort to make the pump new. Usually for applications as yours, there is a good enough level that is much more affordable. The problem is that the rebuilder can not afford to take the risk of a "good enough" on a rebuild.

If your fork lift bleeds down, you more than likely need a new piston packing in the lift cylinder. The valve bodies seldom need rebuilding unless they are leaking badly out of the spool ends.

Replacing the spools in a valve body is relatively very expensive since the spools are hand selected for a close match with the body and then are hand lapped to fit.

The things you are looking at fixing are often the very items that make a fork truck scrap unless you do all of the work yourself.

Ziggy2 said:

I think you will be closer to $2500.00 with shipping.

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Bob's at $859. With a quote. Who spends $2.5k on a rebuild of a simple 20 G.P.M vane pump?

Throwing a pump at a machine that dosnt need one is a common fuckup.

Won't fix anything but lighten your wallet.

Buy a pressure gage and learn what the prolem is

Than fix the prolem.

Could be as simple as the turn of a screw,a spring,some packing,a few shims......

Heavey Metal said:

Throwing a pump at a machine that dosnt need one is a common fuckup.

Won't fix anything but lighten your wallet.

Buy a pressure gage and learn what the prolem is

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Fluid level in the tank is up to the level of the pump (and it should suck it up anyways).. I cracked the big pressure line,
nothing came out, took it off, nothing still comes out.. I was able to top off the tank by pouring fluid down
the pressure line... I don't think you are supposed to be able to do that... I was trying to see if I could prime it, and
it just poured right on through into the tank.

This is what the sealed, freshened (not rebuilt, but just taken apart and fluffed) motor looked like.. It was full of water
gravel/dirt and tin foil (no oil).. So who knows what happened to the hydraulic pump.

Looks like it's been submerged at some time - has it been in a flood ?

andrewmawson said:

Looks like it's been submerged at some time - has it been in a flood ?

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Nope, it was sitting in the forklift.. Plugs in, air filter on..

I would be very cautious about spending any money on this unit. It definitely was submerged at some point.

If you had gravel in the top of the engine, you will have the same or worse in the crankcase.

The symptoms of the pump indicate that the vanes are seized in the pump. That is why you can pour oil in the high pressure side and it goes into the tank. The quote for your pump repair will not be honored when the shop gets it apart as it is probably full of rust.

Your hydraulic tank is also probably full of who knows what.

The transmission is also going to have issues.

I'm surprised this thing even ran the way it looks.

To salvage this fork truck, a complete dis-assembly will be required. That means everything needs to come apart. All of the hydraulic system and lift cylinder, engine, transmission, differential, brakes.

Personally I don't think this is worth it. You will be way money ahead to junk it now and find something a lot better.

Do not under estimate the effects of this much contamination and corrosion to a mechanical system.

Short story:

Years ago we had a neighbor farmer that needed to rent a dozer to level a spoil bank from a drainage project he had done. The ditch that had been dug was about 10 ft. deep at the bottom and about 20ft. wide at the top. Any way this guy was not the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to mechanical devices. In his efforts to spread the dirt from the ditch excavation, he managed to back the dozer into the bottom of the ditch which had about 6 ft. of water in it. This was on a Friday afternoon, dozer stayed in the ditch until Monday morning.

The machine had been new with zero hours before the incident. The dealer was able to get the dozer out of the ditch and onto a trailer without running it. The shop mechanics spent about a week flushing everything out. The machine was never the same and was nothing but headaches to anyone that attempted to use it. It was later sold at a a machinery auction out of the area.

That is the story of what happened a brand new machine that was submerged for only a short time and reasonable efforts made to properly clean it.

Your fork truck has been not even treated that good from its appearance, so be fore warned of the future problems.

Those cylinder head 'studs' don't look original, they look like common or garden 'allthread' to me - I've never seen engine studs threaded all the way, they are usually a proper stud form with just the ends threaded, and made from tougher stuff than allthread.

Ziggy2 said:

I would be very cautious about spending any money on this unit. It definitely was submerged at some point.

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I can 10,000,000% assure you that this forklift was not submerged... 4 years ago that motor ran on a stand, at this shop after the
motor had been given a "fluff".. and I was there the day the motor went into the forklift, and then it sat in the same exact spot
IN THE DESERT, right next to the shop for 4 years.. The "install" was never completed.. Prior to that it had a clapped out motor in
it that barely ran and it did a ton of work and moved a lot of stuff up to 12k lbs... (here, at this shop, for years)

I'm going to guess that the engine was packed with dirt and tin foil and had a garden hose run down the carb.. I found that quite
a while ago.. Motor came out, got ANOTHER "fluffy fluffy"... Motor is back in and even runs decent, fires on all 6... Temporary
motor, I've got another that is going to get a "proper" rebuild, and put on a stand for when this one pukes its guts up, and it will,
its a mish mash of parts that work just well enough together to make a running motor...

I was hoping the hydraulics had been un-molested... And they may be, it could just be moisture or blowing sand from sitting open
for so long... The tank will get drained and flushed.. I might pull the valves and at least have a look, anything downstream
of that should be fine (I think), it would take effort to fuck that up...

Head studs, grade 8 all thread.. Like I said, its a temporary motor... If I need it 5 hours in a year I'd be surprised.. Thing
is, when I NEED IT.. I NEED IT.. Just don't need it that often.

Wow those are weird looking "studs"

andrewmawson said:

Those cylinder head 'studs' don't look original, they look like common or garden 'allthread' to me - I've never seen engine studs threaded all the way, they are usually a proper stud form with just the ends threaded, and made from tougher stuff than allthread.

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Is the motor pictured above fixable in that state?

Don't tell me it actually RUNS like that??

ManualEd said:

Is the motor pictured above fixable in that state?

Don't tell me it actually RUNS like that??

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Ripped it out, tore it down(again), cleaned all the rust (needle scaler), Rust in the bores came out with a scotch pad,
rust in the combustion chambers not so easy... honed it (again)... scraped all the dirt out of the ring grooves,
lapped the valves in (again), gooped it all up with assembly lube and slapped it back together..

Runs pretty good all things considered.. New carb (ford 300 cheap), New alternator, and had the
starter rebuilt. Plugs and wires, already had a pertronix electronic ignition.. Plumbed the oil filter in properly.

So......how do you hone a combustion chamber??

dkmc said:

So......how do you hone a combustion chamber??

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VERY VERY carefully...































"IT" refers to the engine as a whole and the cylinders more specifically..