loopback eye vs. Flemish splice

I don't use wire rope slings much, mostly synthetic, but I might have to. For an eye and eye sling, it seems like my basic choices are either a Flemish splice or a loopback eye. OSHA doesn't require proof testing of either, but loopback eye slings built to ASME B30.9 require proof testing. Loopback eye slings built to EN 13411 don't require proof testing. The internet tells me that they use gauging to determine whether the crimp is correct and that there are failure modes that the gauging will catch but the proof test won't.

What are the relative advantages of these two options? Pricewise they seem similar. Is there a good reason to pick one or the other?

I hope someone who actually knows the answer will reply, because I'd like to know. But here are some thoughts.

I assume by "Flemish splice" you mean what I was taught to call a "Flemish eye", where you unlay the rope into 4 strands on one side and 3 on the other and lay the halves back together around the eye, The left-over ends (if any) are also laid back together, and I secure the resulting stub to the standing part with iron wire serving, but you could also swage a ferrule over them

I assume by "loopback" you mean merely forming a loop n the end of the rope by turning it back, then where the end and standing part overlap, clip or swage.

I will say that the Flemish eye should be stronger because the halves of the rope laid together around the eye develop friction against each other, in addition to the friction inside the serving, swage ferrule, or clip(s)

Maybe my somewhat informed speculations will irritate someone enough to offer us a "real" answer.

Havent seen a wire rope splice done in years.....its all swaged on ally sleeves now,which dont reduce the capacity of the rope.

No wonder you haven't seen me do it..You're in Orstrylia!

I have a number of slings I use with Flemish eyes, just lifted a 1500 pound engine today. They are easy to learn. I don't have anything against swaged eyes, just don't have the tools to do them or the sleeves.

Steve

magneticanomaly said:

I hope someone who actually knows the answer will reply, because I'd like to know. But here are some thoughts.

I assume by "Flemish splice" you mean what I was taught to call a "Flemish eye", where you unlay the rope into 4 strands on one side and 3 on the other and lay the halves back together around the eye, The left-over ends (if any) are also laid back together, and I secure the resulting stub to the standing part with iron wire serving, but you could also swage a ferrule over them

I assume by "loopback" you mean merely forming a loop n the end of the rope by turning it back, then where the end and standing part overlap, clip or swage.

I will say that the Flemish eye should be stronger because the halves of the rope laid together around the eye develop friction against each other, in addition to the friction inside the serving, swage ferrule, or clip(s)

Maybe my somewhat informed speculations will irritate someone enough to offer us a "real" answer.

Click to expand...

Haven't DONE one since Skewl daze, 1966 (Belvoir), steel OR natural fiber but..

..if you took the "Star Ferry", lower deck, across HKG harbour enough times, you'd now and then see a grizzled crewman cut-off the worn end of his mooring tackle and throw a Flemish splice into about two or three inch Manila Hemp as casually as brewing a cup of tea, and just about as fast.

No extraneous material required. Simply knowing how.

Mind.. his coastal South Chinese seafaring ancestors wudda had a Chinese name for it long before Flanders, hence "Flemish" yet existed!

Europe, Middle East, Africa, South Seas... etc.. ancient mariners and "not only" - probably did just the same, the concept of "rope" as old - and as universally useful - as it is.

There's still merit in that sort of long-proven simplicity?

OT but when using rope or synthetic i use a alpine butterfly knot, self locking, won’t slide. I’ve literally trusted my life to it multiple times, it’s my go to knot for securing my life line when 8 story’s high.

Homebrewblob said:

OT but when using rope or synthetic i use a alpine butterfly knot, self locking, won’t slide. I’ve literally trusted my life to it multiple times, it’s my go to knot for securing my life line when 8 story’s high.

Click to expand...

I just trusted SGT Tafoya. He was the recruiting Sergeant when I went in "RA".

ANY recruiting Sgt or Navy Chief since the days of Alexander the Great will tell yah if you want to live forever, sign-up for Combat Arms and make some OTHER poor, dumb bastid die for HIS country.

Only LATER does some OTHER Sergeant make it clear that it only WORKS as long as you are able .. to make it so!

Oy! The motivation!

I never heard of the alpine butterfly, but I like it. Not an answer to the OP question

Does anyone know how strength of alpine butterfly compares with a bowline used in same way?

I still want to know the "right answer" to the OP's question.

magneticanomaly said:

I never heard of the alpine butterfly, but I like it. Not an answer to the OP question

Does anyone know how strength of alpine butterfly compares with a bowline used in same way?

I still want to know the "right answer" to the OP's question.

Click to expand...

My experience comes from climbing and high angle rescue rigging and not from rigging for 10k pounds of machinery. And everything for this type of work is with ropes and not wire/wire ropes.

The alpine butterfly is an excellent knot for tying into the middle of a rope system. I have used it many times. The advantage is that the rope has a less acute angle exiting the knot than a figure 8 on a bight (when used in the middle of a system).
For tying into the end of a rope, I use the figure 8 follow through or a figure 8 on a bight.
Bowlines are not wrong, but they have been largely replaced by the figure 8 and alpine butterfly for tying into a rope. There are still situations where a bowline is used but it is far less common than 50 years ago. And I rarely see anyone tying into a system using a bowline.

Black Diamond and Petzl out blog posts about the strength of knots, ropes and such. However, I have found them hard to google search (or I just suck). However, the Aussie climbing instructors did a small test on various knots:

http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/Knot-Testing_Thomas-Evans_2016.pdf


Climbing magazine also put out an article that briefly discussed this issue:

10 Things You Didn't Know About Knots - Climbing Magazine



However, none of this answers the OP’s questions as all of this is in ropes and not wire. I have no knowledge on creating the strongest loop for the end of a wire/stranded wire.

I use a flemish splice on ends i make in the yard then a clamp in the tails I have lost tooling because of Just clamps the end stripped right out on a shock load. Im sure i had done something wrong on the tightening. but factory rigging Has to meet a spec or they are out of business when someone dies. Find a local wire rope supplier That has been in business for years and use what they say. the swedging mqchines are amazing basically a cold forged joint. I dont know how you would do an eyelet as a flemish joint that is one guy you wouldnt want to armwrestle.

If you are curious as to splice strengths, here is a link to not only strength but a tutorial on splicing done by a New Zealand Logging association.https://scion.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/api/collection/p20044coll16/id/690/download

I have spent most of my life at sea in the fishing industry and here is my take on eye splices. If you are using them for slings and are taking good care of them, I.E. not leaving them out in the elements, swaged ends are the way to go, faster to make up, strong and compact. If you are out in the elements like I was, you will find that corrosion will start taking place inside the swage where you cant see it and it fails under load. My boat uses 1-1/8 inch anchor wire that I have a thimble eye swaged into, after 2 seasons I cut the eye off, swap ends on the winch and put a thimble eye splice in, two more years and the cable is replaced. The cable is way cheaper than losing all your ground tackle, in my case about 4k worth! Another point to consider is that you can pull a spliced eye through large logger style blocks and it doesn't affect the splice whereas trying to pull a swaged end through puts a kinking action on the wire weakening it. m2cw