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Need help/advice on a 60's era continental out of CAT/Towmotor FL

ajk2004

Aluminum
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Location
Fort Dodge, IA
Hey guys,
I have probably a mid 60's CAT/Towmotor 750S forklift. I can't really find a whole lot of info on the forklift itself but have found a few service manuals for the engine. I'm not 100% sure what the engine that it has. I believe it is an F245, but I could be mistaken. It is a 6 cylinder engine. When I bought it, it was very hard starting and wouldn't run very good. I tracked down the mechanic that used to service it regularly and he was pretty sure it needed a valve job. So, that is where I am starting. I managed to get the head off yesterday afternoon and it looked surprisingly good. I was expecting to see a burned valve or two but nothing looked too bad. I haven't got the valves out yet so I don't really know what the valve seats look like. I could see a TON of carbon build up on the underside of the exhaust valves. Looked really junky.
So, my first question is, how do I get the keepers off of the valve? I can't seem to find any detailed visuals or video on how the keepers come off. I am used to the automobile style but these are different and I was unable to figure out how to get them off. Have any of you guys done this before? I saw a picture on the internet and it looks like there are split keepers on some of these but then other people talk about a pin.
The other thing I might run into is I am doing this procedure with the engine in the forklift. These engines are super hard to get to and taking the engine out of the machine seems like to much trouble for this machine. I am hopeful that the valve seats look okay and their surfaces look okay, at least enough to lap to try to bring the surface within spec again. Has anyone ever pulled the seats and installed them while the engine is still in the machine? Thanks in advance for all of the help. I sure appreciate it!
Andy
 
Can't help on the keeper issue, IF it is an F245 they are prone to overheat. I am in the midst's of rebuilding my Hyster C70 with a F227. It may seem like a big pain to remove the engine, it is the only way to work on these. The couple of hours spent removing the engine/ trans make all the difference in access.

Steve
 
The oldr motors have cotters in the valves .......the valve stem has a slot,and small steel piece fits through it to retain the spring cap.......note the spring cap has a recess to prevent the cotter from coming out,so the valve spring/cap needs to be compressed enought for the cotter to slide out.....Easy Peasy.......however ,dont drop the little cotters...............Valve seats...its not a performance motor ,so just recut the seat if its burnt .......doesnt matter if a valve is sunk a bit........dont ruin the block ,tho ......Heres a little secret....use silastic on the head gasket .......it was my maintenance secret for curing gasket blows every couple of months.
 
Well I sold parts for these in the 60-70s and there are 3 different style valve retainers/keeper ! The cross pin and then 2 different styles depending if the valves are positive rotate style or what is called free valves that rely on engine vibrations to rotate. As I recall and remember I don't remember what I had for lunch today ! The positive rotaters used regular looking split tapered style. The free valve style used a U shaped keeper and had a cup shaped cap over that that pushed on the spring retainer. Like I said it's been a day or 2 !!! Or it might be the other way around. But I would bet at least the exhaust valves had some style of rotation.
 
What manuals did you find? I have a bunch in PDF format and if what I have is different from what
you've got I could send copies to you.

Wisconsin motors bought Continental a number of years ago and, for a time, all of the manuals were
available free on line. For some reason that changed--you could still get the manuals but they were no
longer free. I had the foresight to save all of them when they were available. We've had a couple
different Hyster forklifts with Continental engines over the years and the manuals have come in quite
handy...
 
Ive done dozens of Continentals and IMHO ,Hyster were the best source of spares.....In fact several times we bought complete brand new F227 s from Hyster.......this is around 12 years ago now......Also not the F226 and F227 are early and late versions of the same motor .....but have different head fixing,so gaskets arent interchangeable......the later F227 has bolts ,7/16 from memory,the F226 has smaller dia studs,and can be problematic ,just like Ford flathead v8s.
 
Hey guys,
I have probably a mid 60's CAT/Towmotor 750S forklift. I can't really find a whole lot of info on the forklift itself but have found a few service manuals for the engine. I'm not 100% sure what the engine that it has. I believe it is an F245, but I could be mistaken. It is a 6 cylinder engine. When I bought it, it was very hard starting and wouldn't run very good. I tracked down the mechanic that used to service it regularly and he was pretty sure it needed a valve job. So, that is where I am starting. I managed to get the head off yesterday afternoon and it looked surprisingly good. I was expecting to see a burned valve or two but nothing looked too bad. I haven't got the valves out yet so I don't really know what the valve seats look like. I could see a TON of carbon build up on the underside of the exhaust valves. Looked really junky.
So, my first question is, how do I get the keepers off of the valve? I can't seem to find any detailed visuals or video on how the keepers come off. I am used to the automobile style but these are different and I was unable to figure out how to get them off. Have any of you guys done this before? I saw a picture on the internet and it looks like there are split keepers on some of these but then other people talk about a pin.
The other thing I might run into is I am doing this procedure with the engine in the forklift. These engines are super hard to get to and taking the engine out of the machine seems like to much trouble for this machine. I am hopeful that the valve seats look okay and their surfaces look okay, at least enough to lap to try to bring the surface within spec again. Has anyone ever pulled the seats and installed them while the engine is still in the machine? Thanks in advance for all of the help. I sure appreciate it!
Andy

Did you do a compression test before you took it apart? Did you do the usual tune up checks? Points, timing, is it gas or propane? Did you try a shot of starting fluid? Do you have a spring tool that will work on a side valve engine? Compress the spring and it will have split locks, a U clip that fits in a slot in the valve or a pin through a hole in the valve that is held in place by a recess in the retainer. The exhaust valves probably have rotators. You need to find someone that has an old style portable valve seat grinder. The kind that uses a pilot in the guide that holds the stone driver. This is usually turned by an electric driver. If the valves were leaking enough to cause hard starting you will never be able to lap them in by hand. Most of those engines seated the valve on the block with no replaceable seat. If the block is burned bad enough it can be machined for hard seats. Goodson has everything you need to do a valve job on this engine but it may be cheaper to hire it done. To bad you are so far from me as I have everything to do the job and most importantly I know how to do it.
 
A common source of bad running is a worn out distributor.....the point gap will randomly change ,and ignition timing with it.....I think the cure is likely an new electronic dizzy.....Try TVF forklift parts for one......Exhaust valve are often burnt and cracked in gas motors,and will need replacement and the seat recut in the block.......However ,dont disregard to possibilty of a blown head gasket.
 
A common source of bad running is a worn out distributor.....the point gap will randomly change ,and ignition timing with it.....I think the cure is likely an new electronic dizzy...

Pertronix has a good range of replacement distributors for industrial applications. I didn't have time to do a
detailed search right now but a phone call to them couldn't hurt...

continental
 
Hey guys, thanks for all of the help. I really appreciate it. The shop that this forklift is in is my dad's and it is about 30 minutes away so when I get there I will try a few different things. A few notes:
1. I did do a compression test when I bought it. (It does run on propane, I say that because many people say these run cleaner and last longer then gassers? Not sure though.) I did the test dry and then added some light oil to the cylinders and did it wet. It has been a few years but I do remember the tests told me that the rings were not bad, or at least they were all the same PSI. Two cylinders towards the middle had lower PSI than the outer cylinders and I believe this could be a head gasket problem? I have a new head gasket bought so that will get replaced anyway when everything goes back together. I'm pretty certain the distributor has been upgraded because is IS electronic and I'm fairly certain it is from Pertronix. I happened to notice that the day I took the head off.

2. Would you guys deck the head on this? I have also heard that these motors are notorious for needing planed down. To do it properly, I know they say to plane the block AND head so each are flat. I'm trying to do this without taking out the engine. If I happen to pull it out, I will get the block surfaced as well.


3. Where on these engines can you find the model? I knew what it was at one time but I have forgotten. Is it on the side of the block somewhere? Do you guys happen to know roughly what it looks like?


4. This forklift would only start with starting fluid. Once it started, it would run but you would need to keep the engine revved up pretty good. If you had to stop/back up, the engine would die and you would have to repeat all over again. I didn't drive it much after I bought it because it was so damn frustrating but I need to use it this summer so I would like to get it running.

Thanks again for your help. You guys are truly helpful.
Andy
 
ID plate is usually on side of block ,as fuzzy memory serves about 3"X4" . Don't recall the shop where I worked at resurfacing the blocks as a regular thing,heads as needed. Did you put a vacuum gauge on it ? The ID plate will have the engine model ie F227 0r F6227 [same engine the 6 just means it was made for FL etc.] and a Spec. number. Spec. number tells what parts were specific to that engine as installed in the FL. such as water pump etc. Many specs were closed spec which meant we did not have the spec sheet ,go to dealer do not pass go! LOL
More trivia rod bearings were L&R ,took 3 pair of one hand 3 of the other. But all in all damm good engines with a little care.

AS per MM's following post RE parts most anything you need will be available from aftermarket NAPA etc.
 
Hey guys, thanks for all of the help. I really appreciate it. The shop that this forklift is in is my dad's and it is about 30 minutes away so when I get there I will try a few different things. A few notes:
1. I did do a compression test when I bought it. (It does run on propane, I say that because many people say these run cleaner and last longer then gassers? Not sure though.) I did the test dry and then added some light oil to the cylinders and did it wet. It has been a few years but I do remember the tests told me that the rings were not bad, or at least they were all the same PSI. Two cylinders towards the middle had lower PSI than the outer cylinders and I believe this could be a head gasket problem? I have a new head gasket bought so that will get replaced anyway when everything goes back together. I'm pretty certain the distributor has been upgraded because is IS electronic and I'm fairly certain it is from Pertronix. I happened to notice that the day I took the head off.

2. Would you guys deck the head on this? I have also heard that these motors are notorious for needing planed down. To do it properly, I know they say to plane the block AND head so each are flat. I'm trying to do this without taking out the engine. If I happen to pull it out, I will get the block surfaced as well.


3. Where on these engines can you find the model? I knew what it was at one time but I have forgotten. Is it on the side of the block somewhere? Do you guys happen to know roughly what it looks like?


4. This forklift would only start with starting fluid. Once it started, it would run but you would need to keep the engine revved up pretty good. If you had to stop/back up, the engine would die and you would have to repeat all over again. I didn't drive it much after I bought it because it was so damn frustrating but I need to use it this summer so I would like to get it running.

Thanks again for your help. You guys are truly helpful.
Andy

I have not seen warpage problems with Continental blocks or heads, clean the head and block thoroughly and check it with a straight edge. I bet it is fine. you can easily tell if the head gasket is blown by looking at it. If it starts and runs on starting fluid I would say you have a fuel problem, Regulator, vaporizer. Did you try a different fuel cylinder?
You might as well do the valve work as long as you have it apart although I would be surprised if that is the problem. Don't forget to reset your valve lash after the valve job. I usually check it before taking it apart as well. Don't mix the valves. You should check the price of new valves, back when I worked on Continentals all the time valves were so cheap it made no sense to grind them. That may have changed in the last 30 years.
 
I have not seen warpage problems with Continental blocks or heads, clean the head and block thoroughly and check it with a straight edge. I bet it is fine. you can easily tell if the head gasket is blown by looking at it. If it starts and runs on starting fluid I would say you have a fuel problem, Regulator, vaporizer. Did you try a different fuel cylinder?
You might as well do the valve work as long as you have it apart although I would be surprised if that is the problem. Don't forget to reset your valve lash after the valve job. I usually check it before taking it apart as well. Don't mix the valves. You should check the price of new valves, back when I worked on Continentals all the time valves were so cheap it made no sense to grind them. That may have changed in the last 30 years.

I agree about valves, they were 7.50~9 each for the F226 I just did. On the hard start, just did a low pressure demand regulator diaphragm on an engine that was a had start wouldn't low idle.

Steve
 
Block and head corrosion is a major problem with old forklifts,the heads get so corroded they just crack ,and cant be welded,too thin.......I saw one bock where it had been welded all around the water passages with either nickle or stainless and all the valve seats welded up .....incredible job,must have cost a fortune.
 
Hey Steve, what is the 'low pressure demand regulator diaphrahm' . Is that in the vaporizer? Or is that somewhere else. Also, one thing I'm not sure about is the 'carburetor' on an lp unit. Do those usually have many problems? Do they need to be cleaned out? I've not pulled it apart either. Thanks!!
 
Block and head corrosion is a major problem with old forklifts,the heads get so corroded they just crack ,and cant be welded,too thin.......I saw one bock where it had been welded all around the water passages with either nickle or stainless and all the valve seats welded up .....incredible job,must have cost a fortune.

Corrosion is not a big problem in the states as it will get below freezing over most of the country so antifreeze is used most everywhere. Why would anyone weld up valve seats with hard seats readily available cheap and easy to install?
 
Corrosion is not a big problem in the states as it will get below freezing over most of the country so antifreeze is used most everywhere. Why would anyone weld up valve seats with hard seats readily available cheap and easy to install?
prior to retiring i was a service manager for a cat dealer material handling div. if that unit has decent compression and doesn't smoke i would leave the internals alone. while you have the head off check for cracks between the valves and from the valves to the cyl liners. this was common in these engines. these cracks usually cause over heating and white smoke.they are usually not repairable.i am leaning toward a problem with your lp fuel system. your regulator could be clogged with tar. or you could have a problem with your vacuum lockoff. the lockoff is a safey device that requires a vacuum signal to the regulator to allow lp gas to flow. i have seen cracked or missing vacuum lines that cause no starts. a vacuum leak would also explaim the stalling out at idle. the old continentals used to be identified by the casting number. i think it was down low by the oil pan by the bell housing
 








 
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