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    Default O/T Another towing questions

    OK, I know we have been over this but I am still a bit unclear on what truck/ trailer combination requires a CDL.

    I have a truck that has a GVWR of 11,500 on the inside door jamb. However, I believe I registered the truck at 13,500 just in case I ever had a full load.

    I am interested in buying a trailer that has a GVWR of 14,000. That puts me at 25,500 (according to the door jamb sticker) - under the 26,001 that the feds mandate as needing a CDL correct?

    The truck is registered commercial and I would plan on registering the trailer commercial. Does that have a bearing on it? Probably only doing intrastate hauling but if I went interstate with this rig would that require a CDL?

    I have read so much info on this that mostly seems to be contradictory. I would like to get some input from some of you guys that have been through this and hopefully save myself a ticket.

    The biggest reason I would like to avoid a CDL is the blood alcohol level of .04% - I like to have a beer or two in the evening.

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    According to this it looks like I would be ok without a CDL.

    Classes of License and Commercial Learner's Permits (CLP)

    Pursuant to Federal standards, States issue CDLs and CLPs to drivers according to the following license classifications:

    Class A: Any combination of vehicles which has a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) whichever is greater.

    Class B: Any single vehicle which has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight that does not exceed 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

    Class C: Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is transporting material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR Part 172 or is transporting any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR Part 73.

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    The requirement for state and federal DOT registration generally happens at 10K, some states allow higher weight intrastate. Even if you don't need a CDL, towing a trailer over 10K interstate would require a medical card. To answer your questions go here Do I Need a USDOT Number? | Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

    DOT registration and needing a CDL are not the same, here is some info on OHIO and CDL's https://www.turfmagazine.com/turfmag...-i-need-a-cdl/

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Miranda View Post
    I have a truck that has a GVWR of 11,500 on the inside door jamb. However, I believe I registered the truck at 13,500 just in case I ever had a full load.
    I would question this, why would the DMV let you tell them the GVW of the truck? If the sticker says 11,500, then it is 11,500.
    Also why would you want to may additional weight fees on the trucks registration?
    Help me understand if I am mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I would question this, why would the DMV let you tell them the GVW of the truck? If the sticker says 11,500, then it is 11,500.
    Also why would you want to may additional weight fees on the trucks registration?
    Help me understand if I am mistaken.
    "Combination" weight.

    Many 1 ton trucks are sporting the above mentioned 25,900 lb stickers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in SoCal View Post
    The requirement for state and federal DOT registration generally happens at 10K, some states allow higher weight intrastate. Even if you don't need a CDL, towing a trailer over 10K interstate would require a medical card. To answer your questions go here Do I Need a USDOT Number? | Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

    DOT registration and needing a CDL are not the same, here is some info on OHIO and CDL's Do I Need a CDL? - Turf

    Steve
    I did not even think about USDOT. Thanks!

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    Do I Need a USDOT Number? | Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

    And even if you don't need a CDL, you may need a USDOT number depending on your business usage.

    In PA, a medical card is required for anything over 17,000.

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    1. There are federal rules, and state rules, and some bizzare quirks where federal rules apply inside a state, due to complicated workings of something called "the commerce clause".

    2. At least in WA, trailer over 10K requires CDL (for commercial use) regardless of combined vehicle weight. So your 14K gross trailer requires a CDL in WA state for commercial use.

    2A. BUT - you can have a 26K truck pull a 10K trailer *without* a class A CDL. (The law is written as "26001 or more pounds" so at least in WA 25990 vs 26000 is irrelevent, but being a litte under is never bad.)

    3. At least in WA, you can license a truck for more than registered weight, and this is considered at least partly kosher. Part of this is the license comes in units of 2K lbs, so your 13K truck could be license for 12K or 14K, take your pick (at least they let me.) I am *told* (but have no direct experience) that the enforcement types care about weight vs license, and things like axle rating vs axle load, but don't care nearly as much about the door sticker. Soooo - if you truck (like mine) is "door stickered" for 10K (thus avoiding need for federal DOT registration across state lines) but is physically more like 12K capable with proper axle loading, you could load it up more and *apparently* not get so much hassle from the DOT, assuming you have the right licenses. You just read this on the internet, check your local rules more carefully.

    4. Strictly non-commercial rules are different - which is why somebody with a big dually can pull a monster camper trailer without a CDL, or why you can drive an RV up to 40 or 44 or some such length feet without a CDL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    1. There are federal rules, and state rules, and some bizzare quirks where federal rules apply inside a state, due to complicated workings of something called "the commerce clause".

    2. At least in WA, trailer over 10K requires CDL (for commercial use) regardless of combined vehicle weight. So your 14K gross trailer requires a CDL in WA state for commercial use.

    2A. BUT - you can have a 26K truck pull a 10K trailer *without* a class A CDL. (The law is written as "26001 or more pounds" so at least in WA 25990 vs 26000 is irrelevent, but being a litte under is never bad.)

    3. At least in WA, you can license a truck for more than registered weight, and this is considered at least partly kosher. Part of this is the license comes in units of 2K lbs, so your 13K truck could be license for 12K or 14K, take your pick (at least they let me.) I am *told* (but have no direct experience) that the enforcement types care about weight vs license, and things like axle rating vs axle load, but don't care nearly as much about the door sticker. Soooo - if you truck (like mine) is "door stickered" for 10K (thus avoiding need for federal DOT registration across state lines) but is physically more like 12K capable with proper axle loading, you could load it up more and *apparently* not get so much hassle from the DOT, assuming you have the right licenses. You just read this on the internet, check your local rules more carefully.

    4. Strictly non-commercial rules are different - which is why somebody with a big dually can pull a monster camper trailer without a CDL, or why you can drive an RV up to 40 or 44 or some such length feet without a CDL.
    Yes, that is what I found. Just wanted to make sure that my conclusions were correct. Thanks for taking the time to go through in such detail.

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    A gentleman here has a gutted out toy hauler camper that he uses to get around the CDL requirements. He has a antique furniture and equipment business, and is always loaded up from sales and auctions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    1. There are federal rules, and state rules, and some bizzare quirks where federal rules apply inside a state, due to complicated workings of something called "the commerce clause".

    2. At least in WA, trailer over 10K requires CDL (for commercial use) regardless of combined vehicle weight. So your 14K gross trailer requires a CDL in WA state for commercial use.

    2A. BUT - you can have a 26K truck pull a 10K trailer *without* a class A CDL. (The law is written as "26001 or more pounds" so at least in WA 25990 vs 26000 is irrelevent, but being a litte under is never bad.)

    3. At least in WA, you can license a truck for more than registered weight, and this is considered at least partly kosher. Part of this is the license comes in units of 2K lbs, so your 13K truck could be license for 12K or 14K, take your pick (at least they let me.) I am *told* (but have no direct experience) that the enforcement types care about weight vs license, and things like axle rating vs axle load, but don't care nearly as much about the door sticker. Soooo - if you truck (like mine) is "door stickered" for 10K (thus avoiding need for federal DOT registration across state lines) but is physically more like 12K capable with proper axle loading, you could load it up more and *apparently* not get so much hassle from the DOT, assuming you have the right licenses. You just read this on the internet, check your local rules more carefully.

    4. Strictly non-commercial rules are different - which is why somebody with a big dually can pull a monster camper trailer without a CDL, or why you can drive an RV up to 40 or 44 or some such length feet without a CDL.

    This is pretty well correct. You can drive a 25,999 truck towing a 9,999 trailer with no CDL. As soon as the trailer is over 10,000, and the combination is over 26,000, you need a class A CDL.

    But the CDL is only half the story. As soon as you cross state lines, federal law takes over. If you are over 10,000 you need a DOT number and all the stuff that comes with it (drug testing consortium, record keeping, hours of service, insurance minimums, DOT physical, etc). If you are over 26,000, you also need IFTA, UCR, and apportioned plates or a trip permit. If hauling for hire, you also need operating authority and cargo insurance.

    As far as I know you can register a truck or trailer for any weight you want, but the axles, tire, and door sticker will be the enforcement criteria. For example, you can register your truck for 26,000 lbs and your trailer for 1 pound. The registered weights are combined. On a semi truck, the tractor is registered for 80,000 lbs and the trailer is basically registered for 0. So they are covered no matter what trailer they hook to.

    FYI, the .04% BAC applies to anyone driving a commercial vehicle, regardless of whether they have a CDL or whether that vehicle requires a CDL. Now, as to deciding if your 11,500 lb personal truck is a commercial vehicle is probably open to interpretation. I would say the probability is high that you would be considered commercial, but I don't know for sure.

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    Many farmers tow heavy with not a CDL but they stay off the interstate roads..

    Here is the Michigan book , Likely Ohio has a book on-line.

    Tow 10K in Michigan..but many tow travel trailers over that.
    https://www.michigan.gov/documents/cdlmanul_16090_7.pdf

    Few beers.... I have to limit myself to two and keep my fingers crossed with my CDL.

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    Key point here is "commercial" - since all of my stuff is stricly non-commercial, I can at least in theory be more liberal in what I do, but tend to stay under various limits in a belt-and-suspenders sort of way.

    The bit about "more than 10,000 lbs across state lines" is why my F250 has the "10K option" - which is literally just 10K written on the door sticker for what is clearly a 12K capable truck.

    (Also, I've refered to a couple of different trucks above, that's why the numbers in some of the examples don't match.)

    Be safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Miranda View Post
    OK, I know we have been over this but I am still a bit unclear on what truck/ trailer combination requires a CDL.

    I have a truck that has a GVWR of 11,500 on the inside door jamb. However, I believe I registered the truck at 13,500 just in case I ever had a full load.

    I am interested in buying a trailer that has a GVWR of 14,000. That puts me at 25,500 (according to the door jamb sticker) - under the 26,001 that the feds mandate as needing a CDL correct?

    The truck is registered commercial and I would plan on registering the trailer commercial. Does that have a bearing on it? Probably only doing intrastate hauling but if I went interstate with this rig would that require a CDL?

    I have read so much info on this that mostly seems to be contradictory. I would like to get some input from some of you guys that have been through this and hopefully save myself a ticket.

    The biggest reason I would like to avoid a CDL is the blood alcohol level of .04% - I like to have a beer or two in the evening.

    That trailer is what is going to put you into a Class A (w/o air brakes) CDL requirement.

    The truck by it'self requires that you have a current "medical card".
    If you cross state lines with that truck (commercially) you need a DOT.
    Depending on how often and how far you cross the state line - may be worth chancing it and playing dumb.
    (Highly recommend a greasy John Deere or Caterpillar hat. Bibbed overalls could go a log way too)

    My wife got dinged over the Mich line 15 yrs ago and we have had a DOT number ever since.
    Being only 10 miles from the line, we doo a lot of business back and forth.


    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Put something on the trailer painted John Deere green (old and dirty) and add 4 bales of straw to the back. A portable fuel tank in the truck would help as well. Then stay off the interstate. Check out your route before hand for DOT scales.

    You just have to look local.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    This is pretty well correct. You can drive a 25,999 truck towing a 9,999 trailer with no CDL. As soon as the trailer is over 10,000, and the combination is over 26,000, you need a class A CDL.

    But the CDL is only half the story. As soon as you cross state lines, federal law takes over. If you are over 10,000 you need a DOT number and all the stuff that comes with it (drug testing consortium, record keeping, hours of service, insurance minimums, DOT physical, etc). If you are over 26,000, you also need IFTA, UCR, and apportioned plates or a trip permit. If hauling for hire, you also need operating authority and cargo insurance.

    As far as I know you can register a truck or trailer for any weight you want, but the axles, tire, and door sticker will be the enforcement criteria. For example, you can register your truck for 26,000 lbs and your trailer for 1 pound. The registered weights are combined. On a semi truck, the tractor is registered for 80,000 lbs and the trailer is basically registered for 0. So they are covered no matter what trailer they hook to.

    FYI, the .04% BAC applies to anyone driving a commercial vehicle, regardless of whether they have a CDL or whether that vehicle requires a CDL. Now, as to deciding if your 11,500 lb personal truck is a commercial vehicle is probably open to interpretation. I would say the probability is high that you would be considered commercial, but I don't know for sure.
    I wondered what would be the "enforcement criteria". Ok, well, I will assume the door sticker.

    I am going to reconsider what trailer to go after. I think to play it safe I will stay under the 10K gvwr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    Put something on the trailer painted John Deere green (old and dirty) and add 4 bales of straw to the back. A portable fuel tank in the truck would help as well. Then stay off the interstate. Check out your route before hand for DOT scales.

    You just have to look local.
    Haha..that's so funny! OK...will take under advisement!

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    Honestly, most of what I will be using this for is hauling our Ford 9n from my house to my son's and back again. But I do want to be able to pick up the occasional machine so I don't want to put "farm" plates on it.

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    It all seems a little lopsided with the weight rating system . No pun intended. It needs to be standardized throughout the country. It's a big moneymaker writing violations. I have a friend that has a greyhound bus converted into a motor home. All he needs is a class F licence.
    We have the combined (vehicle,trailer and load) and under 26,000 pounds in Missouri is still non commercial, but a local truck driver insisting my trailer cant be over 10,000. I have a 2004 f350sd with a 2015 22ft goosneck with 12,000lb tandem dually axles. At a 10,000lb limit I couldn't haul over 4,500 pounds including trailer weight. I didnt buy the new trailer to max the weight rating but to be safely over trailered. I haul a 9,000lb skid steer mostly. My trailer loaded with the skid steer can stop my truck.
    I showed him the 26,000 combined weight non comercial on MODOT Website and he still disagreed. It is difficult to get strait forward information.

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    Well, you can't have it both ways. The Feds did their best to reign in the wild west that was the state trucking laws, but it's still a work in progress. They forced some states to tighten up their rules, and have battled hard with retarded states like mine to pull back on some of the arcane regulations we have.

    For example, only in the last 10 years or so have we had an interstate registration system that actually kind of works. Before that you had "cab cards" with a list of states that you were registered in. Want to drive in a non registered state? No can do. You have to buy a trip permit because you cannot add a state to your cab card until renewal. Before that you had to actually buy a different license plate for each state. They had plates called "bingo plates" with multiple registration stickers pasted to them.

    It's the same with the weight and size limits. With the interstate highway system, the Feds had to come up with a uniform set of rules for trucks on interstate routes. But you had states like Illinois that refused to budge from the 73,280 lb max weight or the 8' max width. The Feds finally got them to allow 80,000 and 8'6" on all state roads by allowing them to basically double the fines for weight violations, and it only happened in the last 12 years. In fact many local roads are still limited to 73,280.

    It certainly is a screwed up mess. If you guy think it's bad, try getting a permit for oversize or overweight. For example, to drive an oversize load from my shop to my house, a distance of 5 miles, I would need 3 permits from 3 different government bodies. I would need one from a township, one from the state, and one from a city. There are no published fee schedules or contacts. You just have to call and ask a million questions and hope the government stooge you need is actually working that day.

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