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OT- New starter for old forklift, need cross ref. data

dkmc

Diamond
1953 Yale 4000lb High Cowl

230 Dodge flat head AKA "IND30" engine.
Old starter is a Prestolite
Numbers on starter tag:

1330254
MCL-6115
2U0008I4

Those numbers come up in searches as "Chrysler Marine" starter.
I want to replace this starter with one of those "Mini High Torque"
4:1 reduction starters made by Nippon or Tilitson.
Sometimes they sell them as Racing Starters.
No one local can provide a cross reference number.
I found one web site that has a lot of various models listed that
fit chrysler, but all 1960-70's cars.
Plus I think this starter is for the industrial bell housing which is forklift specific.

Anybody know a Starter guru guy that could provide me with a model number of a Mini Starter that would replace the Prestolite?

dk
 
Just plain doubt one is made.. Chrysler/Dodge 6's are low compression, low performance engines. No hot rod high compression crowd to support making one to fit. The stock starters spin great on 12 volts, so no high perf one was made AFAIK. We have 7 or 8 Dodges in my immediate area running 12 volts to a 6 volt starter, and I am running one of them... Never a bit of trouble..

Except for the special Army M37B1 T245 230 ci engines, and 251 ci Power Wagons (possibly some industrials..) Flatheads were gone from US built Chryslers/Dodges in 1960..

My 1950 Hollander interchange manual shows only MCL-6003 and MCL-6006 (it is a few years too early)

An older junkyard should have a second or third edition Hollander that shows possible interchanges.

The slightly offset from bore centerline rods, and long stroke... stopped performance upgradeability for the old flathead Chryslers.. Overspeeding kills them..
 
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Your best bet is that older guy down the street that rebuilds starters and alternators (he has parts for generators too!). He can repair to as-new for a very reasonable sum. I know he is around, you just have to find him. Regards, Clark
 
I know you are not asking for this question, but why do you want to change out to a 4:1 starter? A good original starter with good cables, a good starter solenoid and a good battery (especially as mentioned before, if you go to12V) there should be no reason that the engine won't readily start, unless you are trying to cover up an underlying problem such as very low compression, a bad carburetor or bad ignition.
 
Find a different starter guy.
My old forklift (late 40s) starter could not be found by number by anyone I could find.
Called 4 places and then heard I could get it turned around in a week.
Worked great BTW, didn't know the engine would spin that fast off the battery.
 
It's funny how so many people get pissy when you suggest doing what you're trying- to replace an old obsolete starter with a modern, better one.

I do this on all my old stuff and it works fantastic. The reduction starters are much more efficient, much smaller and last forever compared to a half-ass rebuilt old thing that just isn't supported for parts anymore. I got the maintence history with the 1960's hyster I purchased awhile back and it had several dozen starter rebuilds and replacements over it's 5000 or so hours. That's a lot of downtime and money right there.

A good friend of mine owns a starter and alternator repair shop. I take the old starter down and dig through his inventory, just match up all the dimensions and I tend to go overkill on the motor size just to be sure it won't have any issues. Sometimes everything is right except for the pinion gear, they are easy to switch if needed and once I had to make a .100 spacer plate to get the right depth using an off the shelf starter.

Most of the old industrial stuff uses one of only a couple different 2 and 3 bolt patterns. A common cheap 2 bolt starter that fits many of these applications, like old tractors, flathead jeeps, etc. is the starter used on the Toyota Landcruiser inline sixes in the 80's and 90's. It's a small little guy, but holds up well.

Good luck.
 
Lets have a little cut& paste fun here and let you guys answer my questions as well as each others shall we?

Question:

I know you are not asking for this question, but why do you want to change out to a 4:1 starter? A good original starter with good cables, a good starter solenoid and a good battery (especially as mentioned before, if you go to12V) there should be no reason that the engine won't readily start, unless you are trying to cover up an underlying problem such as very low compression, a bad carburetor or bad ignition.

Answer:


It's funny how so many people get pissy when you suggest doing what you're trying- to replace an old obsolete starter with a modern, better one.

I do this on all my old stuff and it works fantastic. The reduction starters are much more efficient, much smaller and last forever compared to a half-ass rebuilt old thing that just isn't supported for parts anymore. I got the maintence history with the 1960's hyster I purchased awhile back and it had several dozen starter rebuilds and replacements over it's 5000 or so hours. That's a lot of downtime and money right there.

A good friend of mine owns a starter and alternator repair shop. I take the old starter down and dig through his inventory, just match up all the dimensions and I tend to go overkill on the motor size just to be sure it won't have any issues. Sometimes everything is right except for the pinion gear, they are easy to switch if needed and once I had to make a .100 spacer plate to get the right depth using an off the shelf starter.

Most of the old industrial stuff uses one of only a couple different 2 and 3 bolt patterns. A common cheap 2 bolt starter that fits many of these applications, like old tractors, flathead jeeps, etc. is the starter used on the Toyota Landcruiser inline sixes in the 80's and 90's. It's a small little guy, but holds up well.

I don''t know if some of you have ever heard one of the newer 4:1 reduction starters spin over an engine, with it's needle bearings as opposed to the wimpy-ass paper thin bronze bushings in the 'old shit'...but usually
most engines -slow down- to an idle after the starter disengages....:eek:
What engine or piece of equipment can NOT benefit from such performance?
Plus, on this forklift, the old large starter is a tight fit down in it.
A mini starter would be cake to install.
What is not to love?
 
Mini starters are great, wonderful, neato.. One works fine on my big inch Harley.

But if not made to fit an obsolete POS flathead industrial engine, they are worthless. And I own/use a couple of those POS's...

Yes Chrysler tended to use oddball noses, and mounting flanges and such. So you would have to go to them to get parts. Chevy starters don't fit Ford's.. Millions more Ford's and Chevy's out there, than flathead Dodges..

Some of these flatheads have the starter tucked up so close to block, it is a pain to get a 9/16 wrench on the bolts.

The 1-1 original starter will spin the motor more than fast enough on 12 volts

As I said before, a Hollander interchange manual is your only hope. Find one, look up what crosses, and find that all the crosses are obsolete POS's.. With no ministarters available..

I actually OWN, and RUN many of these things...

Between me and my 2 neighbors, we have over 15 flathead Dodges..
 
Mini starters are great, wonderful, neato.. One works fine on my big inch Harley.

But if not made to fit an obsolete POS flathead industrial engine, they are worthless. And I own/use a couple of those POS's...

Yes Chrysler tended to use oddball noses, and mounting flanges and such. So you would have to go to them to get parts. Chevy starters don't fit Ford's.. Millions more Ford's and Chevy's out there, than flathead Dodges..

Some of these flatheads have the starter tucked up so close to block, it is a pain to get a 9/16 wrench on the bolts.

The 1-1 original starter will spin the motor more than fast enough on 12 volts

As I said before, a Hollander interchange manual is your only hope. Find one, look up what crosses, and find that all the crosses are obsolete POS's.. With no ministarters available..

I actually OWN, and RUN many of these things...

Between me and my 2 neighbors, we have over 15 flathead Dodges..

It's not a "mini starter". It's a gear reduction unit.

The small physical size DC motors used in these things are more powerful and use less juice than the old direct crap. If a modern starter had a motor the size of the old things on it it'd be 10 times as powerful as the old direct jobbers.

Most of the engines I deal with aren't shitty old flathead dodge engines, they're 17:1 through 21:1 compression 4 through 8 liter diesel engines. They all use those itty bitty "mini starters", most engines have since the early 80's and they work great.
 
overthinking somethig that simple is beyond me.like my old forklift,i'm sure it started just fine on 6 volts,running it on 12 seems simple enough.
personally, i wouldnt waste my time changing something that worked just fine for 60 years.
 
I actually OWN, and RUN many of these things...
Between me and my 2 neighbors, we have over 15 flathead Dodges..

Oh you poor fellows.....:o

Well, if a 4:1 starter WAS available, it would probably cost around $75 new as
opposed to the $150 or more to get the old "POS" rebuilt.
So that would make even more common sense to change it out.


overthinking somethig that simple is beyond me.like my old forklift,i'm sure it started just fine on 6 volts,running it on 12 seems simple enough.
personally, i wouldnt waste my time changing something that worked just fine for 60 years.

What part of this story didn't you read?
The old one DOES NOT "work fine"....it's a pile of crap, and was not so good when new.
It has been running on 12 volts for the last 20 years and 2 rebuilds.
It has now got a measly 500 hours since the LAST rebuild...that's about 30,000 highway miles in a car.
New and improved components have their place on old equipment as well as new.
A 4:1 starter on this forklift would most likely be the last one it would need.
And to find one that happens to fit and bolt up....how much time is that actually wasting??
 
starter info

I found a company (Karam 1-306-244-9818) in Saskatchewan, Canada, that has your starter in stock. Took 5 minutes. Otherwise, look up your local speed shop, like Summit Racing, scoll to Starters, then refine by flywheel teeth etc (lots of pictures). I realise what your trying to do, it took me 4 starters to fit one in a funny car (drag racing). Most mini starters have a plate with two bolt from below holes, the front mounting plate can be removed, or there are nose cone style versions (dodge) available. Hope this helps.
 
Just to put this to bed......
I called the guy yesterday and prodded for progress.
He did check it out (the old starter) and the fields were shorted.

So today (next day) he called and it's done.....new bushings, repaired
field winding, $126 Spins it over pretty good....LAST starter repairs on this machine I suspect.

dk
 
Justin Case you need it in the future;

Napa 91061873
remanufactured by Wilson Electrical.
6volt starter, 9 tooth, clockwise rotation. 12 month warranty.

for the bargain price of...

drum roll please...







(don't you just hate it when people do this?)







(I sure do)







$493.44

:skep:

Thats U.S. Not Canadian.

Alex.
 

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wilson was the gold standard.wilson electric is not what it used to be-now chinese internal parts.they have such a poor performance record in the last three years,lots of dealers are dropping them.
i sold their products for many years,in my opinion they were one of the best,now you couldnt give me one for free.

as dkmc did,i will be sending my starters to an independent electrical rebuilder.
 
wilson was the gold standard.wilson electric is not what it used to be-now chinese internal parts.they have such a poor performance record in the last three years,lots of dealers are dropping them.
i sold their products for many years,in my opinion they were one of the best,now you couldnt give me one for free.

as dkmc did,i will be sending my starters to an independent electrical rebuilder.

Wilson was bought out by BBB about a year ago. BBB is a very good company based in Oklahoma. they supply starters, alternators, winches to all the major players in the aftermarket and the OE replacement. They are seriously good people with a first-rate reputation, and they deserve it. Might be time to give them another look.
 








 
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